El Tejon
Member
I'll take this one, THE COMMERCE CLAUSE!
A clause for the cause of unlimited government.
A clause for the cause of unlimited government.
Who is responsible
- Thread starter Beav
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Monte Harrison
Member
Back to the original question for a moment:
Also:
It is not anyone's responsibility to keep firearms out of the hands of criminals. It is the responsibility of the free citizen to not be a criminal.
Also:
I don't care if I left a gun out in the middle of my front yard in plain sight. If someone comes and steals it, that is still 100% the fault of the thief. This whole notion of blaming the victim of a gun theft because they didn't have a gun safe is analagous to blaming a rape victim because she was wearing a low-cut dress. Crimes are 100% the fault and responsibility of the criminal.
Tamara
Senior Member
Can I get an "Amen"?
Kahr carrier
Member
YEP AMEN 
Guns, but not the safe? Are you for real?
What if they dropped that safe onto someone, killing them? Is it your responsibility then?
What if one of the criminals is killed or injured by the safe falling on them while they are trying to steal it? You liable then? Even a little?
What if they steal your car and kill someone with it?
Knives? Those can kill people!
Since you feel "partially responsible" for the actions of others, if someone did steal a gun from you and killed someone with it, would you be willing to serve some time right next to them?
Why or why not?
Chris Rhines
Member
(Chris falls over in a dead faint.)
- Chris
- Chris
TallPine
Member
Background checks = registration (eventually, in a round about way, when the store goes out of business, or when the Feds "drop in" to investigate some crime, as in the DC Sniper case)
Registration = confiscation ... ALWAYS
Damn right I got a problem with that.
Tamara
Senior Member
Beav,
That doesn't answer my question.
Since you are not a violent felon, tell me what you feel gives any agency or authority the right to run a background check on you and grant you permission to purchase a gun?
Why do you feel the need to ask anyone's permission to buy a gun?
That doesn't answer my question.
Since you are not a violent felon, tell me what you feel gives any agency or authority the right to run a background check on you and grant you permission to purchase a gun?
Why do you feel the need to ask anyone's permission to buy a gun?
On behalf of my fellow citizens to ensure that I am a law-abiding citizen capable of responsible gun ownership. I am showing that I am a citizen in good standing and I'm doing my part to keep felons from obtaining arms in the same manner.
Its no different than getting my driver's license.
Selfdfenz
Member
"Who is responsible for keeping firearms out of the hands of criminals and how?"
If all federal, state and local laws were written single spaced on double sided sheets of paper the stack would be several feet high.
Add all the policy(s) that carry the weight of law passed by the EPA, OSHA etc etc and you are working on yard and yards.
Violation of lots of that stuff will cause you to be deemed a criminal.
Much of that "law" is BS. (sorry Oleg)
If someone in Cali runs over a protected gopher while mowing his or her pasture they may be a criminal if they loose in federal court BUT they should be entitled to own firearms. Period.
I guess I'm having problems with your original question. Defining the term criminal is not so simple these days. Many of the responses seem to be considering violent crime, which is not clear in your question.
No flame intended.
S-
If all federal, state and local laws were written single spaced on double sided sheets of paper the stack would be several feet high.
Add all the policy(s) that carry the weight of law passed by the EPA, OSHA etc etc and you are working on yard and yards.
Violation of lots of that stuff will cause you to be deemed a criminal.
Much of that "law" is BS. (sorry Oleg)
If someone in Cali runs over a protected gopher while mowing his or her pasture they may be a criminal if they loose in federal court BUT they should be entitled to own firearms. Period.
I guess I'm having problems with your original question. Defining the term criminal is not so simple these days. Many of the responses seem to be considering violent crime, which is not clear in your question.
No flame intended.
S-
You don't seem to grasp the concept that being a Felon and being a dangerous criminal are two entirely different things.
Dangerous criminals should be arrested and imprisoned until such time as they are rehabilitated or die.
The rest of us should be assumed innocent until proven guilty. I don't feel any need to ask permission to exercise a right or prove I am not a psychopathic killer.
Your idea of being "responsible" is a feelgood thing that works for you as long as you "qualify". The day may come when you do not. Will it still be moral and just then? Will society be safer after you have been denied ownership of firearms because you got in a bar fight twenty years ago? Or took advantage of psychiatric counseling after suffering from PTSD? Or had a restraining order slapped on you? Or got a ticket for twenty one over because some radar detector went belly up? Or bought an illegally configured firearm because the dealer said that brake was BATF approved?
Dangerous criminals should be arrested and imprisoned until such time as they are rehabilitated or die.
The rest of us should be assumed innocent until proven guilty. I don't feel any need to ask permission to exercise a right or prove I am not a psychopathic killer.
Your idea of being "responsible" is a feelgood thing that works for you as long as you "qualify". The day may come when you do not. Will it still be moral and just then? Will society be safer after you have been denied ownership of firearms because you got in a bar fight twenty years ago? Or took advantage of psychiatric counseling after suffering from PTSD? Or had a restraining order slapped on you? Or got a ticket for twenty one over because some radar detector went belly up? Or bought an illegally configured firearm because the dealer said that brake was BATF approved?
G-Raptor
Member
When you figure out who is responsible for criminals becoming criminals, then you'll know who's responsible for keeping guns out of their hands.
BTW, the felon in possession law is stupid and an infringement on the rights of citizens.
BTW, the felon in possession law is stupid and an infringement on the rights of citizens.
Yes I meant violent felons, apologies for not being specific. And yes I agree that the system needs an overhaul.
After all, I agree background checks wouldn't be a big issue if the system did work and violent felons stayed in prison.
So why are felons getting out early and what needs to be done to prevent it? Is it an overcrowding issue, a tax issue, or is it a reform issue?
Thanks
After all, I agree background checks wouldn't be a big issue if the system did work and violent felons stayed in prison.
So why are felons getting out early and what needs to be done to prevent it? Is it an overcrowding issue, a tax issue, or is it a reform issue?
Thanks
Driving is a PRIVILEGE, NOT a right.
Owning firearms is a RIGHT, NOT a privilege.
Do you understand the difference?
I'm not so sure you do...
1) Why do you take the stance of guilty until proven innocent?
That's what all background checks do: they assume everyone is a criminal, until you prove otherwise.
You don't have a problem with being assumed guilty and having to PROVE your innocence?
2) May I ask if you would support a background check to buy cars?
I mean, wouldn't it be AWFUL if a criminal bought a car and used it as a getaway vehicle in a crime, or used it to kill someone?
Yes I know the difference between a right and a privilege. But just as privileges get revoked so can your rights.
When you earn your DL, you have shown that you are capable or driving.
When you go through a BGC, you show that you are a responsible gun owner.
No need to have background checks for vehicles, you have a driver's license already and a driving record.
When you earn your DL, you have shown that you are capable or driving.
When you go through a BGC, you show that you are a responsible gun owner.
No need to have background checks for vehicles, you have a driver's license already and a driving record.
Hkmp5sd
Member
You know, the comments on how to proactively prevent BG's from buying guns instead of punishing them when they do in fact break the law, have brought to mind the proactive measures Nazi Germany and the USSR used where they put potential criminals in concentration camps to ensure everyone's safety.
It seems to be the same thing only on a very much smaller level.
It seems to be the same thing only on a very much smaller level.
No, I don't think you do understand.
You do not need ANYONE'S permission to exercise a right.
You DO need permission (license, etc.) to excercise a privilege.
By your logic, you would support some form of licensing before a person could speak, right?
And a BGC does NOT mean you are responsible; it can only check for criminal activity.
No, you don't get my point.
Car dealerships do NOT look at your driving record to determine if you are a "good driver" before you buy a car.
And a license again does NOT mean you are a responsible driver either.
For all the dealer knows, you could habitually DUI. You could've just walked out of the slammer from a DUI conviction and go buy a car.
You could have a grippe of accidents.
In short, you could be ANYTHING BUT a "responsible" driver for all the dealer knows.
Yet you can still buy a car without a background or record check of any form. Get it???
Furthermore, determining "responsibility" is a very slippery slope.
What is a "responsible" gun owner? Tell me, Beav.
Someone who can field strip, clean, and reassemble their gun blindfolded in under a minute?
Someone who can get 1in. groups at 50 yards?
Someone who can just hit the paper everytime?
Someone who knows which end of the gun to point at the bad guy?
You see Beav, when you try to establish a "basic level of competency", it is all downhill from there.
What is a "responsible" gun owner? Tell me, Beav.
Someone who can field strip, clean, and reassemble their gun blindfolded in under a minute?
Someone who can get 1in. groups at 50 yards?
Someone who can just hit the paper everytime?
Someone who knows which end of the gun to point at the bad guy?
You see Beav, when you try to establish a "basic level of competency", it is all downhill from there.
So are all the felons that commited ridiculously minor offenses. Or committed no offense.
Your act of passing a background check has no bearing on your qualification of being responsible. "Responsible" is a term, when used in conjunction with firearms ownership, that varies from state to state. The BGC, if you pass it, only means they can't find you in their database.
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