I received a call from the local police deptartment that a gun which was stolen from our gun shop in 1970 was retrieved however, my father bought the shop in 1978 so actually it was stolen from the previous owners who are now long since deceased. I bought this shop from my parents in 1998. Here's the situation; The pawn shop which purchased the gun from an innocent individual, had to give it to the police because it turned up as stolen. That pawn shop is now taking me to court because they believe the gun should belong to them because, they believe that an insurance company reimbursed the previous store owners for the cost of the gun. However, they can't know that for certainty because there is no way to verify anything, since those owners are deceased. Also, I am now the 3rd owner of this same store, which they don't know that I am the 3rd owner yet. So, the question is; Who is the legitimate owner of this gun?[/U] I believe it would be me since the store is still in existence and even though it was not stolen from me personally, it was stolen from my store. And, yes, I do want it.
who owns it?
- Thread starter JohnR3400
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Bubbles
Member
If the insurance company covered the loss back in 1970 then the insurance company owns the gun. Good luck finding those records...
Also, what state is the pawnshop in? In many states purchasers of stolen property can't demand compensation from the owner whose property was taken.
ETA: I did some research since this is potentially a problem for us as well. Pawn shops have different rules from state to state. In some states the person from whom the items were stolen has to pay the shop to get the items back, and then they can file a civil suit against the thief (good luck collecting). In others the shop is SOL.
Also, what state is the pawnshop in? In many states purchasers of stolen property can't demand compensation from the owner whose property was taken.
ETA: I did some research since this is potentially a problem for us as well. Pawn shops have different rules from state to state. In some states the person from whom the items were stolen has to pay the shop to get the items back, and then they can file a civil suit against the thief (good luck collecting). In others the shop is SOL.
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mgkdrgn
Member
Unless it's worth a -whole- lot more than most of the pawn shop guns I've see, I'd say it isn't worth the time/trouble to mess with it.
A few hours of a lawyers billable time, and a few hours of your time, even if you WIN, will cost you a lot more than that gun is likely worth.
A few hours of a lawyers billable time, and a few hours of your time, even if you WIN, will cost you a lot more than that gun is likely worth.
Even if they have a claim you should not be liable for the previous owners. That would mean every time a small business was purchased the liability would fall in the lap of the new owner for anything that happened previous. I just can't see that as being the case.
Are you liable for the back taxes too?
Are you liable for the back taxes too?
Considering the cost of litigation and of lawyer's fees, I'd try to work something out with them where you give them the rights to the gun and they drop the suit.
Not legal advice, YMMV, yadda, yadda, yadda. But still, how much is the gun worth compared to how much would you pay a lawyer?
Not legal advice, YMMV, yadda, yadda, yadda. But still, how much is the gun worth compared to how much would you pay a lawyer?
Once every few years, we seem to have a buisness deal that might end up in court. Our rule of thumb is that if it isn't substantially more than 10k $, you can't afford to take it to court. Those legal fees add up really fast, even for dumb things. And if you loose, you are out everything and maybe a judgement against you. YMMV
WardenWolf
member
It's your store's gun. Period. Ownership does not transfer on stolen property; any transactions made on it after that point are false. The store is the legal entity that is gun's true owner, and therefore, you. Regardless of whether the insurance company paid it off, it is NOT the pawn shop's gun. Any transactions made after it went missing are invalid. I wouldn't even bother hiring a lawyer. A judge will tell them they have no claim to it. I guarantee you that you will NOT lose. It's open and shut. That aspect of property law is very simple.
armoredman
Member
I agree, any transactions after the theft don't legally exist, no matter the person transferring the firearm - it's transferring stolen goods. BUT, IANAL, nor do I play one on TV.
Guillermo
member
Hopping on the bandwagon
UNLESS the insurance company paid, in which case they bought the gun, it is the shop's gun.
I also loath the fact that the pawn shop guy is probably counting on the fact that it is cheaper to settle and screw that outdated concept of right and wrong.
Were it me...I would fight if for no other reason than to let the community know that I am not a sheep. If I lost I would go after the pawn shop owner with my legal team personally and professionally.
BTW
find a young, hungry lawyer looking to make a name. He will attack like a pit bull on crack
UNLESS the insurance company paid, in which case they bought the gun, it is the shop's gun.
I also loath the fact that the pawn shop guy is probably counting on the fact that it is cheaper to settle and screw that outdated concept of right and wrong.
Were it me...I would fight if for no other reason than to let the community know that I am not a sheep. If I lost I would go after the pawn shop owner with my legal team personally and professionally.
BTW
find a young, hungry lawyer looking to make a name. He will attack like a pit bull on crack
jerkface11
Member
It was stolen 40 years ago, and you didn't even know it existed. Why not let the pawnshop have it.
Guillermo
member
why let the pawn shop benefit from stolen merchandise that is an asset of the company that he bought?
first disclaimer: depending on your state
1. if the insurance company paid off a claim, the gun belongs to them
2. many states require that the pawn be paid by the legal owner...not the value, just the pawn...to claim the item
3. why don't you ask your insurance company?...it is, after all, a claim against your business
1. if the insurance company paid off a claim, the gun belongs to them
2. many states require that the pawn be paid by the legal owner...not the value, just the pawn...to claim the item
3. why don't you ask your insurance company?...it is, after all, a claim against your business
Post # 7
Warden Wolf's mentions...
That would be my understanding also.
I myself bought a Revolver on Gunbroker early this year, which then turned out to have been stolen in 1997 ( I think it was 1997 ) in Florida.
Personally, I was happy for the rightful owner to have it back, even if it meant I'd be out that dough I had paid for it.
The Gunbroker Seller also offered to give me the dough and postage back, and to eat the loss himself.
Everyone was very cool all through, and, it turns out it was a clerical error, and, the Revolver had actually been cleared many years before, so, it was returned to me, after a few months of Red Tape, and no one was out anything.
Warden Wolf's mentions...
That would be my understanding also.
I myself bought a Revolver on Gunbroker early this year, which then turned out to have been stolen in 1997 ( I think it was 1997 ) in Florida.
Personally, I was happy for the rightful owner to have it back, even if it meant I'd be out that dough I had paid for it.
The Gunbroker Seller also offered to give me the dough and postage back, and to eat the loss himself.
Everyone was very cool all through, and, it turns out it was a clerical error, and, the Revolver had actually been cleared many years before, so, it was returned to me, after a few months of Red Tape, and no one was out anything.
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DenaliPark
member
"Hmm" one firearm from 40-yrs ago generating all this interest, mighty curious that?
MinnMooney
Member
Why not just let the pawn shop claim the gun?
If you get the gun - It's a windfall since you had no idea that it was out there.
If the pawn shop gets the gun back - They've received something that they paid for.
Morally, I'd would NOT fight for it but rather I'd let the pawn shop have it.
If you get the gun - It's a windfall since you had no idea that it was out there.
If the pawn shop gets the gun back - They've received something that they paid for.
Morally, I'd would NOT fight for it but rather I'd let the pawn shop have it.
Guillermo
member
please expand on why you think that the pawn shop profiting from stolen merchandise is the moral path
millertyme
Member
the asset in question was converted by the insurance company and the new shop owner, if the firearm is returned, would have to repay the insurance company. assuming the value of the firearm was converted for the original shop owner, the compensation became the asset of the company in lieu of the firearm and the value of the asset has transferred from owner to owner. by accepting the compensation the original shop owner would have transferred rights to the firearm to the insurance company, just like you would an automobile that has been declared "totaled" after an accident. If the pawn shop later acquired the pistol from a bona fide purchaser, as it is claimed, they then should have title. this could also fall under lost/found property. state by state this could change, but at common law it would hold up pretty well, i imagine. since the pawn shop paid for the pistol and the OP did not, the pawn shop should be able to obtain title.
Russ Jackson
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It certainly is not yours. Was it listed in the inventory you bought? No ...Russ
Guillermo
member
when you purchase a business the unpaid debts and assets convey.
it is CERTAINLY your's unless the insurance company paid for it.
if that is the case it is owned by the insurance company.
in NO scenario is it the property of the pawn shop
that is the general legal take (state laws vary)
it is CERTAINLY your's unless the insurance company paid for it.
if that is the case it is owned by the insurance company.
in NO scenario is it the property of the pawn shop
that is the general legal take (state laws vary)
Freedom_fighter_in_IL
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Russ pretty much nailed it there. If the insurance company had not paid, the weapon would have been listed on your inventory list under "lost/stolen" inventory which had not received compensation for. IIRC that is a stipulation in all states for all firearm inventory lists. If it did not appear on your inventory list, then it is not yours as it was more than likely paid for by the insurance company therefor all rights and ownership is theirs.
BCCL
Member
When you buy a business, unless otherwise specified in the sale agreement, you take on all assets and liabilities of the business. The gun technically would be an asset, unless the insurance company paid off a claim on it, then it belongs to them. (from 1970, I'd be stunned if the insurance company will even want to bother looking for the records)
So it will probably come down to who blinks first over going to court, you or the pawn shop.
So it will probably come down to who blinks first over going to court, you or the pawn shop.
Freedom_fighter_in_IL
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Well since it is the pawn shop taking YOU to court, it is up to them on how far to take it I would assume. You have been answered as far as the legal ownership issue I believe. So I guess it is now up to you how hard you wish to fight. A lawyer is probably not needed in this issue as far as actual in court, but I would take a moment to consult one on the ownership issue as far as the insurance company is concerned. As far as the Pawn shop goes, it is pretty much their loss in MOST states. He should have done due diligence and verified that it was a legal firearm before buying it. It's not like in todays world with computers that it is difficult to run a check on the SN. Takes all of about 30 seconds. I believe the real issue is with the Insurance company ownership.
Lucky Derby
Member
He is sueing you? Unless it is an extremely rare and valuable weapon then the value would have to put it in small claims court. What is he asking? What he paid? Pawnshops normaly lowball sellers, so I imagine it couldn't be a big suit. Small claims=no lawyers, in court at least. I would think that with most guns even an hour or two of billable hours from an attorney would be more than the suit.
I would say the gun belongs either to the shop or the insurance company. I would bet money on the insurance company (if you can find them and they are still in business)not wanting to deal with a 40 year old theft. If it is thiers you could offer to buy ti back from them for what they paid the store in 1970.
I am not a lawyer, do not play one on TV and did not sleep at a Holiday Inn Express last night.
I would say the gun belongs either to the shop or the insurance company. I would bet money on the insurance company (if you can find them and they are still in business)not wanting to deal with a 40 year old theft. If it is thiers you could offer to buy ti back from them for what they paid the store in 1970.
I am not a lawyer, do not play one on TV and did not sleep at a Holiday Inn Express last night.
CoRoMo
Member
Hmmmmm?
27 CFR section 478.129:
(e) Records of dealers and collectors under the Act. The records prepared by licensed dealers and licensed collectors under the Act of the sale or other disposition of firearms and the corresponding record of receipt of such firearms shall be retained through December 15, 1988, after which records of transactions over 20 years of age may be discarded.
(e) Records of dealers and collectors under the Act. The records prepared by licensed dealers and licensed collectors under the Act of the sale or other disposition of firearms and the corresponding record of receipt of such firearms shall be retained through December 15, 1988, after which records of transactions over 20 years of age may be discarded.
Wouldn't those 40 year old records be long gone by now?
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