Who Really Supports the 2nd Amendment

[Elza]

OK, folks, I’m all suited up in Nomex awaiting the flames so here goes. Just for the record I’m a registered Republican. I state this as fact not something that I brag about these days.

The High Road. Sounds good. Too bad it is so often ignored. We give hell to anyone that stereotypes all gun owners as ignorant rednecks at best and often far worse. Yet anyone that is a Democrat (or God forbid a liberal) is demonized in a manner that is certainly equal to what we suffer as 2nd Amendment supporters.

When the Republicans swept into power it was haled as a milestone for gun owners. I certainly didn’t see anything to brag about out of the Republican majority.

What we ended up with was a large number of Republicans that were anything but friendly to the 2nd Amendment. We lost a number of pro-2nd Democrats and replaced them with Republicans that were either anti- or didn’t give a flip.

If I may be so bold as to suggest that people stop automatically putting all Democrats/liberals into the anti-gun camp. I realize that there is certainly a greater number but just as certainly they aren’t all that way. Start looking at the individuals as opposed to the letter after their names. It is their voting record that matters, not their party affiliation. People that vote only for a party are either fools or too lazy to research the candidates for themselves.

The basic point that I am trying to make is that we stop insulting and alienating our 2nd Amendment friends simply because they have other views that better fit another party. Debate their other views if you wish. There is nothing that I enjoy more than a good debate. But I welcome anyone that will stand beside me in my defense of the 2nd Amendment.

 

[Autolycus]

I agree with you. That is why I vote Libertarian.

One member here said I should register as a Republican instead of a Libertarian so that I could vote for Ron Paul in the primary. I refuse to give the Republicans any money because I feel they betrayed me.

We should not alienate people who vote for a party outside of the Republican party. We should vote for Pro-2nd amendment politicians. It does not matter to me what party you vote for so long as the politician is Pro-gun in my opinion. Just choose the one that is most in line with your views.

 

[bogie]

Well, part of it might be that a certain party seems to always include increasingly repressive gun control as a major portion of its political platform...

Now, I'm not a rocket scientist, but if a party is 90% in my interest, I'm a LOT more likely to vote for them than to vote for one that's 90% against me. Nothing is perfect.

You may now return to the democratic underground.

 

[Damien45]

I think the true problem could actually stem from us pro-gun voters. We all agree on one issue, yet do we all agree on the others? If we all vote for the candidate that best agrees with us, individually, then our votes get scattered amongs many pro-gun candidates....while the anti-gun candidates usually agree on everything, so one candidate gets ALL their votes. (Yes, this is a broad generalization, but not too far off I think).

 

[ConfuseUs]

Well the Democratic party and gun control are strongly correlated. Note that most (nearly all) gun control legislation is proposed by Democrats, the parts of the country with the strictest gun control laws are controlled by Democrats, and that Democrats are much more likely than Republicans to get F grades from the NRA.

Correlation is not causation and thus gun control does not get enacted solely by Democrats but the sheer imbalance of the party on the issue is glaring. The Republicans can count on the gun owner vote so long as they have the Democrats proposing silly gun laws. The rules of the game do not require them to even try to repeal silly gun laws; they just have to not vote for them and not propose them.

Have said my $.02, I bet a lot of THR members would vote Democrat if the party did 2 things: stopped trying to raise taxes and stopped trying to ban guns. The national leadership of the party will have to change before that happens.

 

[JWarren]

I understand the point you are getting at-- and I wish it were that simple.

Political parties are packaged products. That's all. They determine the ideological mix that will result in the most people buying their product.

The results of this are that you may well find yourself having to go through a mental checklist to determine the number of values the candidate holds that are consistent to yours. Then, you must prioritize to determine if there are any "deal-killer" inconsistencies.

And after all this, you STILL get a freaking policitican in office instead of a statesman.

Because of that, I am a registered Republican. Historically, the Democratic Party has operated under a premise that is FAR too inconsistent to my beliefs, and is financially damaging to my life. I don't particularly like ALL republican views, but for the large part, they are more consistent to my views and address my needs better than the Democrats.

While the 2A is a HUGE part of my decision-making process, it is not the only one. Take a look at which party has worked to beneficially reform our Estate Tax Laws and then look at which party has fought to prevent this reform. Estate Taxes are the absolute BEST example of socialism and penalizing those that work hard, save money, and are far-seeing enough to have some left over when they die. Prior to the temporary adjustments to Estate Taxes under Bush Jr., you could end up giving up to 68% of your assets to the government at death. Socialism at best--- legal theft at worst.

Regardless of my other positions, I have to include this issue in my decision-- considering my profession and personal life.

The High Road. Sounds good. Too bad it is so often ignored. We give hell to anyone that stereotypes all gun owners as ignorant rednecks at best and often far worse.

If you will notice the syntax of the last sentence, it applies a negative connotation to have gun owners stereotyped as ignorant rednecks.

The use of the term "Redneck" is in itself a negative, derogatory (as it is often used) stereotype. I find it interesting that you are upset about stereotyping of those you are advocating, and in the process USE A STEREOTYPE. My sympathies wear thin, my friend.

The High Road. Sounds good. Too bad it is so often ignored.

Yep, it would seem so.


John

 

[Glockfan.45]

I wont vote for a supposedly pro-gun Democrat, or any Democrat for that matter. Having said that I am quite the libertarian in most regards, but I will never trust a Democrat. The problem is that Joe Sweatsock (D) may say hes pro-gun come campaign time, but when it comes time to vote on the floor hes very likely to just "tow the party line". It happens all the time sadly enough. The vast majority of gun control advocates are dems, and all you need to prove that claim is to look at the sponsor list of any gun control bill.

As far as liberal bashing goes the problem is this. Liberal used to apply to folks like Jefferson, and Franklin, however today it applies to the likes of Pelosi, Kerry, Obama, etc. I know you prefer the term leftist but here liberal applies. Its just like the word gay is used today. Way back when gay simply was a term for happy, however if you were to say a person were gay today I doubt many people would think you meant they were happy. I find it funny that the liberals figured out that most people consider the name to be a dirty word and now try to call themselves progressives.

 

[RavenVT100]

Yet anyone that is a Democrat (or God forbid a liberal) is demonized in a manner that is certainly equal to what we suffer as 2nd Amendment supporters.

I don't believe that is the truth at all. In fact, you will find that a large portion of the community on THR is "small L" libertarian leaning and hence very liberal on social issues that the Democrats are also in favor of, with a possible exception being socialized medicine.

It is an undeniable fact that the Democratic Party is also the party that initiates nearly 100% of the firearms prohibition legislation in the United States. Since the 1960s and especially starting in the early 1990s the party has pushed extremely hard to outlaw firearms of various types, and to also outlaw various types of people from owning firearms. This is not up for debate. The party continues to push for increased restrictions on ownership of firearms, and for increased disenfranchisement of certain demographic groups when it comes to firearms. Look at HR 1022. Is there a single republican co-sponsor? Last I looked, there was not.

Despite the fact that it has cost Democrats dearly, they would apparently rather have eight years of Bush than drop this issue. And yet they continue to push for more, and more, and more.

It really irks me when people try make light of all the Democrats have done to damage civil rights under 2A by comparing it to Bush saying he'd sign another AWB. I'm sure he would. That doesn't immediately make the enormous amount of damage the Democrats have done any less. This isn't "demonizing" Democrats; it's pointing out a well-known fact. We caught the same kind of flak with Kerry--after pointing out his thorough history of supporting gun prohibition, we were told that that didn't matter. After all, Senator Kerry is a "hunter," at least during campaign time, and Bush said that "he'd sign" another AWB. Then it must be the same! Only it's really not.

 

[TallPine]

Yeah right, and the Democrats in the Montana Senate voted in block to kill our self defense/alaska carry bill

 

[Glockfan.45]

Yeah right, and the Democrats in the Montana Senate voted in block to kill our self defense/alaska carry bill

Note: I did not say all of them just most. I will submit now a list of 1022's sponsors incase you would doubt me.

Sponsor:
Rep. Carolyn McCarthy [D-NY]

Cosponsors
Rep. Gary Ackerman [D-NY]
Rep. Howard Berman [D-CA]
Rep. Lois Capps [D-CA]
Rep. William Clay [D-MO]
Rep. Joseph Crowley [D-NY]
Rep. Diana DeGette [D-CO]
Rep. William Delahunt [D-MA]
Rep. Anna Eshoo [D-CA]
Rep. Chaka Fattah [D-PA]
Rep. Bob Filner [D-CA]
Rep. Barney Frank [D-MA]
Rep. Raul Grijalva [D-AZ]
Rep. Mazie Hirono [D-HI]
Rep. Sheila Jackson-Lee [D-TX]
Rep. Patrick Kennedy [D-RI]
Rep. Zoe Lofgren [D-CA]
Rep. Nita Lowey [D-NY]
Rep. Carolyn Maloney [D-NY]
Rep. Edward Markey [D-MA]
Rep. James McGovern [D-MA]
Rep. Martin Meehan [D-MA]
Rep. Bradley Miller [D-NC]
Rep. James Moran [D-VA]
Rep. William Pascrell [D-NJ]
Rep. Edward Pastor [D-AZ]
Rep. Janice Schakowsky [D-IL]
Rep. Adam Schiff [D-CA]
Rep. Brad Sherman [D-CA]
Rep. Louise Slaughter [D-NY]
Rep. Ellen Tauscher [D-CA]
Rep. Christopher Van Hollen [D-MD]
Rep. Debbie Wasserman Schultz [D-FL]
Rep. Robert Wexler [D-FL]

P.S Montana Democrats are a different breed than the standard (D).

 

[JWarren]

Let's see...

The Democrats made efforts to avoid discussing RKBA-issues for the November '06 elections. Even with HR 1022 gaining sponsors, the Democrats are avoiding any RKBA discussions. They are simply adding sponsors to the bill quietly.

It seems that they realize talking about the RKBA is an election killer-- yet not legislating towards gun control goes against their overall party principles.

So what do you do??

Easy. You stop talking about RKBA. You use your grassroots organizations to assert that because you aren't talking about it, the general party position is now RKBA friendly, and then you quietly push your legislative position.

Democrats on the party level realize they have a problem. A big part their support comes from anti-RKBA groups. They HAVE to keep these groups happy, and yet they also know that RKBA issues can be election killers.

So you have to talk out both sides of your mouth.

I support ONE Democratic representative in my state because he has PROVEN over years that his beliefs are consistent to mine. All those "pro-gun" representatives that have come in need to start PROVING themselves before I would blindly throw complete confidence behind one.

Sadly, the history of the Democratic Party as well as current stunts like HR 1022 REQUIRE a pro-RKBA Democrat to PROVE that he isn't just another one that tells us what will get him elected.

For the record, the Republicans need to take notice as well. Running BLATENTLY anti-RKBA candidates such as Guiliani erodes their historical precedent of being a pro-RKBA party. They can only milk that cow so long. If they don't start PROVING they are with us, we will have to conclude they are not.

John

 

[evilelvis]

Unfortunately it really boils down is that we really need a more moderate group of people in power. Hard to say if that can happen since so many people tow the party line - like someone said, you don't get a statesman no matter what they say on the campaign trail, you get a politician. That being said it's pretty clear at least to this new member that THR seems to fit my needs pretty well - largely socially liberal but clearly in support of 2A. I'm learning a lot here, and that's certainly affecting my knowledge when and what for and who I am going to vote next. The simple fact is - if an issue doesn't directly affect someone, they just don't care. You can argue that about 2A, drugs, alcohol, medicine, whatever. It's all boiling down to awareness and education. I never thought I would be joining the NRA or buying a pistol but here I am!

I still try to vote mostly libertarian at least locally since I think that is an easier road to get in on.

Speaking of our reps I am going to go look for some letter input to write to my MD rep who is on HR1022. Hopefully I won't throw up while writing my letter to his office.

 

[only1asterisk]

If I may be so bold as to suggest that people stop automatically putting all Democrats/liberals into the anti-gun camp. I realize that there is certainly a greater number but just as certainly they aren’t all that way.

This is true. They are not all "that way", just the vast overwhelming majority. I have hope that the recognition of the RKBA will open the eyes of these few to the freedom destroying nature of the socialist ideas to which they currently subscribe and they will eventually abandon them completely.

David

 

[Gordon Fink]

Who really supports the 2nd Amendment?

A small subset of gun owners who often identify themselves as libertarians. To some extent, everyone else supports gun control and suppression of the right to keep and bear arms.

Some of us get criticized for preaching to the choir, but this choir is far from perfectly faithful.

~G. Fink

 

[cmidkiff]

Unfortunately, the party _matters_ in our system. The majority leadership has the final say on many things that deeply affect our legislative branch.

If you voted in pro-gun dems, you helped put Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi in positions of power. How is _that_ good for our gun rights?

Let's be real... the only party that has a viable chance to take control away from the party of Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid, the Clinton's, and Sara Brady is the GOP.

Yes, there are pro-gun Democrats. Yes, there are gun-grabber republicans. As a whole, our chances of regaining our 2nd amendment rights are _far_ better with the republicans in power.

The last Democrat president gave us Ginsburg and Breyer. Would you want a court full of like minded judges?

 

[geekWithA.45]

If I may be so bold as to suggest that people stop automatically putting all Democrats/liberals into the anti-gun camp.

I acknowledge that there are many Democrats and modern liberals who do not espouse gun control.

I applaud and support them.

I call upon them to get control of their party and get their party lined up on the correct side of the issue.

Nothing would make me happier than a Democratic party that returned to the authentically American premise of the Lockean constitutional republic, which is the historically, legally, morally and pragmatically correct vision.

Sadly, the plans and positions of the Democrats tend to follow the twisted Rousseaunian (et al) corruption of Locke.

 

[RCouch]

I'm a disenchanted Republican who occaisionally votes for a local Democrat when I know them and how they stand on the issues. To vote a Democratic ticket nationally would be buying the whole package and I could never do that. As others have said before, there are no more statesmen, only politicians and this is tragic but a truth. We are forced to live with what we have and what we have allowed to happen in our nation. A good part of our problems can be attributed to our own failure to stand up, speak out and use our energy and dollars wisely. God help us if things continue like they are.
I will continue to vote Republican!!!
GOD BLESS AMERICA.

 

[-terry]

Well, I'm a liberal, I'm a Democrat, I'm pro 2A. Go figure.

I continually vote Democrat (except for one vote for Regan, which I still regret) because I am not a one-issue voter. Even a cursory look at the republican administration over the last 6 years should be enough to give pause. Anti science, anti birth control, anti abortion, two wars (the first one I supported), enormous debt encumberment--not to mention global warming.

Can I sacrifice 2A at the alter of improvement in all these other issues? It's a quandry. 2A is just so damn important. If it goes, what's left? I like both Hillary and Obama but their stated opinion on gun control is scary.

Because of the last 6 years, I'm sure I'll vote Democrat all the way through, but I have serious reservations.

I know this is a forum where republican, rightest, pholosophies dominate but if you're pro 2A, we're brothers in that regard.

-terry

 

[WhitetailFanatic]

"It is an undeniable fact that the Democratic Party is also the party that initiates nearly 100% of the firearms prohibition legislation in the United .."

And with that quote the entire thread is effectively summarized!

 

[RavenVT100]

I continually vote Democrat (except for one vote for Regan, which I still regret) because I am not a one-issue voter. Even a cursory look at the republican administration over the last 6 years should be enough to give pause. Anti science, anti birth control, anti abortion, two wars (the first one I supported), enormous debt encumberment--not to mention global warming.

Let's examine those issues you mentioned for a second. Anti science? Since when have the sciences been impacted in any significant way by what I can only assume you are referring to, that being creationism. For the record, I believe that creationism is ridiculous, and that it doesn't belong in a science curriciulum. And yet there is almost absolutely no chance of it ever being taken seriously by the majority. Ever. It just won't happen. There are far more dangerous ideas than creationism--despite its absurdity it's probably not much more dangerous than believing in Santa Claus.

Likewise with Roe v. Wade being overturned. It's as close as it can possibly be to settled law.

These things are used primarily as talking points to get elected. Nothing mindblowing ever happens.

Can I sacrifice 2A at the alter of improvement in all these other issues? It's a quandry. 2A is just so damn important. If it goes, what's left? I like both Hillary and Obama but their stated opinion on gun control is scary.

EDIT: Not really worth it.

Like it or not, your party has hung a giant "NOT WELCOME" sign on its "big tent" for those of us who are pro-2A. And it's too bad, because it's killing your party's electability. Your party is ostracizing millions of potential voters by portraying them as criminals and thugs for enjoying a civil right.

 

[Mr White]

I agree we tend to over-generalize things. I'm certainly not above taking the low road from time to time and taking swipes at Democrats and Liberals because they are historically the ones trying to take our guns.

But in the past 3 state elections when he's run, I voted for a Democrat as my State Representative. He's the only thing keeping me from voting straight ticket R. He's proven consistently over time to be pro 2nd A, pro hunting, pro environment and pro common sense. He always gets an A from the NRA and an D from the antis. That's good enough for me.

2 yrs ago, our state legislators sneakily and sleazily voted themselves huge pay raises. My rep was one of the few who not only voted against it, but refused to accept any of the raises or unvouchered expenses. It got him in trouble with his party and cost him a committee chair and a few committee seats. When public outrage over the raises started getting bad, a lot of reps and sens then began declining their raises to save their careers, but my rep was one of the very few on record who opposed it from the start.

So, while my comments no the forum may often seem otherwise and my overall leaning is heavy to the right, I'll vote with my beliefs every time no matter what letter is after the candidate's name.

 

[MudCamper]

stop automatically putting all Democrats/liberals into the anti-gun camp

stop insulting and alienating our 2nd Amendment friends simply because they have other views that better fit another party

Elza, I couldn't agree more. See my sig.

And here's a reality that all the Democrat bashers seem blind to: Until we convert most Democrats to be pro-gun, we will never win the war on the RKBA. Stop alienating them and start converting them. And that doesn't mean converting them to Republicans.

 

[mpmarty]

"Anti science, anti birth control, anti abortion, two wars (the first one I supported), enormous debt encumberment--not to mention global warming."

Would someone like to back this stuff up with facts? I don't even believe the global warming has anything to do with human habitation of the planet as we have had global warming and cooling for eons and the recent swing in temps is nothing compared to what we had in the middle ages according to ACCREDITED SCIENTISTS, not chicken little sky falling sycophants.

I'm sorry, but we are in a mel of a hess and all the smoke, mirrors and noise put up by the politicians is just distracting us and blinding us from what needs to be done. Term Limits!! Quit electing politicians and put some ordinary honest citizens back in government. Stop all the financial shenanigans by the press and media including darling hollywood and the huge multinational corporations that should have no political say whatsoever in this country.

Sorry for rant and theft of thread.

 

[Elza]

MudCamper: And here's a reality that all the Democrat bashers seem blind to: Until we convert most Democrats to be pro-gun, we will never win the war on the RKBA. Stop alienating them and start converting them. And that doesn't mean converting them to Republicans.

That is precisely the point I was getting at. As a conservative Republican I can rarely have a civil conversation with “the other side”. One of their own who is pro-RKBA would stand a far better chance of getting their point across. These are the folks that I don’t want to run off.

JWarren:The use of the term "Redneck" is in itself a negative, derogatory (as it is often used) stereotype. I find it interesting that you are upset about stereotyping of those you are advocating, and in the process USE A STEREOTYPE. My sympathies wear thin, my friend.

Apparently you missed (or chose to miss) the thrust of this statement. I was using it as an EXAMPLE not a comment.

 

[Headless]

The only people i know that claim to be Republican and vote that way ALL the time are not in any way gun people...however, i know several people who are most certainly not republican (Democrats? Not really. Maybe libertarian) that love guns. Gun ownership and 2A support does not follow party lines...hell, the parties don't even follow their own lines nowadays. May as well flip a coin, the dem you get elected might have more repub values than the repub you could vote for it seems.