Who realy was behind an AK-47 design

[Levan9X19]

First of all I dont want ot insult someone, I only want to hear opinions from other users

There is a version (and this version becomes quiet popular even in Russia) that german engeneer Hugo Shmeisser was behind the AK-47 design.

As you may already know, Kalashnikov first came up with the design which was very similar to german STG-44. I am talking about prototype called AK-46 (see pics)

The date of remanufacturing, when AK-46 became what we all know as classic AK matches the date when Hugo Schmeiser was invited in Izhevsk.

Under competition rules, radical remanufacturing (change) of initial design was not allowed but nevertheless Kalashnikov and his team managed to do this. Radical differences are obvious between AK-46 and AK-47.

What do you think? share some info or your opinions.

 

[AndyC]

I've often wondered the same thing, although Kalashnikov has always denied that anyone other than he designed the AK.

 

[1200 meters]

Russian ingenuity

The russians are great for copying that which works and claiming ownership. There can be no question that the AK is a russianized version of the 44. Inparticular is the copying of the intermediate round. There some differences but that's the russian simplification and deteching ( making it simple but effective)

 

[Vaarok]

Actually the M-43 round was a copy of a GECO prototype round the germans came up with, abandoned, offered to the Italians, and then data for was stolen and sent to Russia by soviet spies. It's actually based off the 7.35 Carcano.

And who copied what is a silly argument. It's a gun, it shoots, concepts are pretty universal but integration of features is the practical challenge. And implementation is the genius of the AK, not the layout.

 

[Omaney]

I never really thought about this but I guess in the back of my mind the AK-47 was an amalgam of designs. Certainly it was influenced by the 44. Stalin had absolutely no shame in copying or reverse engineering other country's designs like the US B29 Superfortress and the Tupolev TU4 for example. I can see where Kalishnakov certainly improved and simplified the concept of this class of rifle.

 

[Slamfire]

As you may already know, Kalashnikov first came up with the design which was very similar to german STG-44. I am talking about prototype called AK-46 (see pics)

From what I have read, Kalashnikov is considered to have come up the basic design of the AK-47. The AK 47 is significantly different from German designs to be considered a new design.

There is still “controversy” whether Kalashnikov saw a STG-44, but it is the controversy of fools.

There is something in the human mind that wants the first, biggest, and best. I guess we want heroes. Sir Edmund Hillary is famous, but he did not climb Everest alone. He was the first (controversy on that) on top. He was chosen to make the summit by the team leader, the whole effort was a team effort, but people are only interested in “the first”. Everyone else has been forgotten.

So folks start these arguments about whether Kalashnikov “independently” came up with the AK, they set impossible criteria, and generally it all amounts to nothing. Unless there is money involved.

I would say 99% of the design principals of the assault rifles were patented prior to 1900. There are a few things, like fluted chambers, that were newish around WWII, but pretty much the assault rifle was a development, a refinement of ideas, mechanical systems, etc, that were floating around here and there.

Design convergence happens all the time. There are only so many ways to build a pyramid. Just because the Egyptians made pyramids does not mean the Incas could not independantly come up with the idea of a pyramid. Seventy years later, the basic operating principals of the assault rifle have not changed much, and configurations are very similar. So, are they all copying each other? Yes, and no.

In fact, if you ever work on a design team, everyone contributes to the design. The Company gets the credit, (for brand name recognition) or the Design lead gets the credit, because we want single point heroes, not teams of heroes. I am certain that Kalashnikov worked with a team of people, some manufacturing types, some small arms experts, each giving and taking. Without a doubt the overall design concept was Kalashnikov’s, and I expect he was the Project Manager, and he has received the credit for the weapon.

That team, and the team leader deserve the credit for creating a design, building successful prototypes, refining the development, creating the industrial base, and getting fielded perhaps the best military small arm from the second half of the 20th Century.

That total lifecycle is very hard to do, and few weapon systems ever get that far. That accomplishment is much more significant than “who’s on first”.

The only original person was the guy who came up with the alphabet. Everything else is derivative.

That’s one way to look at it.

 

[Ian]

Actually the M-43 round was a copy of a GECO prototype round the germans came up with, abandoned, offered to the Italians, and then data for was stolen and sent to Russia by soviet spies. It's actually based off the 7.35 Carcano.

Yeah, the 7.62x39 has the same case head dimensions as both of the Carcano cartridges (6.5 and 7.35). Apparently back in the 80s, before x39 ammo was available in the US, it was made from imported surplus Carcano ammo. Cut down and resize the brass, replace the bullet, and presto - ammo for your Vietnam bring-back SKS. I actually have an example of the stuff:

Left to right, 7.35 Carcano, 7.62x39 from Carcano, 7.62x39 Wolf

In theory, there are a bazillion pulled 7.35 bullets lying around somewhere.

 

[Joe Demko]

Whether Mikhail Timofeyvich Kalashnikov single-handedly designed the AK, I can't say. At the time, it suited the desires of the Soviet propaganda machine to diseminate that story. Like all good propaganda, it is a story that people want to believe and like to believe. Whether the story is objective fact or not, I daresay even grazdanin Mikhail Timofeyvich believes it now.

 

[Hoppy590]

oh god. not this.


the STG44 has no functioning simularity to the AK. it looks similar fromt he outside. but operates differantly... the piston is nothing new, it was around before the STG and around after the AK. the STG locks more like an SKS with a tilting block, as opposed to the AK's turn bolt. both the AK and STG get the sheet metal body from subguns that came before it. pistol grip is nothing new.

the STG is not the "original assault rifle" as all claim. its easily preceded by the Fedorov avtomat, a Russian select fire intermediate rifle

ALL GUNS. i repeat ALL GUNS borrow from those before them. the AK takes parts from the M1 garand, a little from the STG. and a number of other guns. to think that theres some conspiracy about the STG and AK is absurd.

as for if uncky Mikhail did it all himself? maybe, but he probibly had help like any inventor would. he came up with the main idea, then had help refining and making it work

 

[ACP230]

I think Kalashnikov swiped some stuff from the Remington M8/M81.
Take a look at the rear receiver and the safety lever of the Remington deer rifle some time. Compare it to the AK.

 

[Ian]

The Remington may have some bits that look similar to the AK, but the guts are what really make guns similar or different. The Remington has basically nothing in common with the AK - it operates through recoil impulse and a reciprocating barrel.

Other rifles that are really not at all AKs are the Dragunov, VZ58, and StG44.

 

[DrewH]

The Germans apparently liked the Russian SVT-40 semiauto rifle and incorporated parts of its design to update their semiauto G41 to the model G43 design.

The STG44 had, as outlined above, had some very different operating principles from the AK. And they both have a lot of basic operating principles in common with all firearms.

And finally, this particular version of "the Russian copied the STG44" story seems silly. The Russians had plenty of captured STG44s, why would they need Schmeisser to come to Ishvek? Did Schmiesser have anything to do with STG-44 design in any case?

 

[Evil Monkey]

Saying Kalashnikov copied the stg44 is like saying Stoner copied the FAL, or AG42. It really is silly.

"Did Mr. Ruger really say no one needs more than 10 rounds? I heard it was a Brady member in disguise! OH NOES, CONSPIRACY!"

 

[Ash]

The Remington and the Ak both share the safety that closes off the action from dirt and debris when applied. The AK very clearly borrowed that idea.

Ash

 

[Cannonball888]

The russians are great for copying that which works and claiming ownership

I hear ya.

German STG44---> Soviet AK47
Finnish Suomi---> Soviet PPSh
US B-29 Superfortress---> Soviet TU-4 (story here)

 

[LeibstandarteAdH]

I find myself damn sure that Hugo Schmeisser was behind the design of the rear trunion and under-folding stock on the AMK-S's

Aside from that, nothing more is evidently that blatently obvious in the design of the AK.

Oh and,

when Hugo Schmeiser was invited to Izhevsk...

ha, invited...

And who copied what is a silly argument. It's a gun, it shoots, concepts are pretty universal but integration of features is the practical challenge. And implementation is the genius of the AK, not the layout.

Yeah kind of like when the russians came up with the Tupolev Tu-4, right?

In fact, if you ever work on a design team, everyone contributes to the design. The Company gets the credit, (for brand name recognition) or the Design lead gets the credit, because we want single point heroes, not teams of heroes. I am certain that Kalashnikov worked with a team of people, some manufacturing types, some small arms experts, each giving and taking. Without a doubt the overall design concept was Kalashnikov’s, and I expect he was the Project Manager, and he has received the credit for the weapon.

I think its a little more about how MK claims to have came up with the design while recovering in the hospital from his combat wounds, he makes no illusion of a design team ever existing in such interviews on the design origin.

ALL GUNS. i repeat ALL GUNS borrow from those before them. the AK takes parts from the M1 garand, a little from the STG. and a number of other guns. to think that theres some conspiracy about the STG and AK is absurd.

Saying Kalashnikov copied the stg44 is like saying Stoner copied the FAL, or AG42. It really is silly.

The post is a lot less about the STG being copied into the AK, and a lot more about the influence of known German small arms designer Hugo Schmeiser on the design team of the AK-47 then you guys are making it out to be with those arguments.

 

[Slamfire]

The post is a lot less about the STG being copied into the AK, and a lot more about the influence of known German small arms designer Hugo Schmeiser on the design team of the AK-47 then you guys are making it out to be with those arguments

Than, is this thread is simply an argument of good versus evil? And the unacknowledged innocent?

 

[mec]

guess we want heroes. Sir Edmund Hillary is famous, but he did not climb Everest alone. He was the first

Tnzig Norgay is famous too. Hes the one that lead Sir Edmund up the mountain
Kalashnikov seems like a nice guy. Selling vodka now. I'd like to think he invented the AK

 

[Hoppy590]

The post is a lot less about the STG being copied into the AK, and a lot more about the influence of known German small arms designer Hugo Schmeiser on the design team of the AK-47 then you guys are making it out to be with those arguments.

that only supports my point, wether copied in idea, or by "spoils of war" as both the east and west ICBM programs were. no one person conceives of an idea in a bubble, cut off from outside influence. if schmeiser was pulled into the AK program, so be it. we got von braun for our rockets. i don't care about the rear trunnion or under folding stock. those arnt function parts. the guts are what make a gun. and the gun makes a legend.

 

[Ash]

The safety is blatantly obvious, though. See...

Ash

 

[SDC]

Most of the WW2 and pre-WW2 Soviet arms designers (Sudayev, Simonov, Kalashnikov, Degtyarev, Bylinka, etc.) were working on the same "design bureaus" to begin with, and when you look at the various designs they produced, you can see how much they swapped back and forth to arrive at their designs. I've got a Russian book called "Istoria Russkogo Avtomata" ("A History of Russian Automatic Rifles"), by S.B. Monetchikov that shows an incredible number of these prototypes, and many of them saw HUGE changes during the design process. Kalashnikov's AK-1 design broke apart like an AR-15, even though it looks somewhat like what we know as an AK-47/AKM, and he produced a competitor to the SKS carbine that looks like a half-breed cross between a Garand and a G-41.

 

[Omnivore]

Take the American gas-operated concept, the M1 Garand trigger group, the German STG-44, the medium cartridge from the SKS (inspired by the German STG-44 8 mm Kurtz round) a few manufacturing and assembly techniques adapted from several previous Russian weapons. Put them all together, give the rifle a long stroke action with plenty of room for dirt, and you have the AK. Pure genius stands on the shoulders of previous geniuses.

 

[squirrel sniper]

Kalashnikov denied that he took the idea from the STG-44. However, the AK was a joint effort by kalashnikov and schmeiser, but since it was on his turf, and since his country had won the war, he got credit for it.

 

[SDC]

I could buy that Schmeisser was responsible for at least part of the designing that went into the "modernized" versions of the AK and PK (since they were designed with an empasis on stampings), but nothing else in the design stands out as similar to what he'd worked on before.

Here's a picture of Kalashnikov's AK-46, disassembled, showing a separate Simonov-style captured piston and bolt carrier with rotating bolt, and separate safety and selector levers on the LEFT side of the rifle.

 

[Matt-J2]

Well, I certainly don't know who's behind the design of the AK-47, but I do know it's a design I don't want to be in front of.






Having said that, this is an interesting thread.