Who realy was behind an AK-47 design

[Don't Tread On Me]

Of all the designers, JMB was the greatest genius as far as coming up with innovations on his own. Even then, he did work with others including his brother. But, he of all great designers - was the most innovative without the use of design teams.

But there's a lot of truth to what SlamFire says. Virtually everything had already been invented. It is small refinements and changes to already existing design concepts and piecing together the right ones in the right way that made most of the systems we see today. JMB himself did not invent most of his great works - instead, he improved already existing designs and made them much, much better. Not only a great inventor, but great at improvement.

I personally do not believe that Kalashnikov was even 70% responsible for the AK-47. I do believe he had a major role though.


It is foolish. If I sat down to "invent" a new pistol, it would be uttery impossible to do so without implementing already existing designs or features. I believe this to be to the point where hypothetically, even if I had been some super-genius, it would still be impossible to create a new firearm from 100% or even 90% original design concepts. Impossible.


It is like the WHEEL. There is something universal and fundamental about it. There are similar concepts in firearms design. You cannot avoid them and end up with a firearm that does certain tasks (like shoot a bullet, autoload, eject etc...)

 

[Tony Williams]

Actually the M-43 round was a copy of a GECO prototype round the germans came up with, abandoned, offered to the Italians, and then data for was stolen and sent to Russia by soviet spies. It's actually based off the 7.35 Carcano.

There was no such GECO round. I dealt with this in an article in December's Small Arms Review, in which I examined the history of the assault rifle cartridge. Some extracts:

Geco was the first in the field, co-operating with the gun company Vollmer-Werke Maschinenfabrik, to produce the Vollmer SL Model 35 self-loading carbine in a nominal 7.75x40 caliber (the caliber was actually 7.9mm, with a bullet 8.05mm in diameter). This was officially tested with good results, but led to no orders. In 1942 Geco produced a new cartridge also intended for a Vollmer carbine, the 7x45SR. This used a wider case and was far more powerful, with a muzzle velocity of 1,000 m/s. Another cartridge, measuring 7.92x33.5, was designed at Geco and attributed to an H.G.Winter, a director of the firm, but the date and the gun for which it was intended are not known.

Attention now switches back to the USSR. The key date was 15th July 1943 when a meeting was held of the Technical Council of the People's Commissariat for Armament (NKV). They had met to consider "New foreign weapons firing lower-powered rounds" and studied examples of both the US .30 M1 Carbine supplied by the USA, and the German MKb 42 (H) in 7.92x33 which had been captured while undergoing troop trials. The meeting concluded that the new German gun and cartridge were important developments and decided that a new reduced-power round must be designed. Responsibility for this was handed over to the OKB-44 design bureau, which produced the first prototype of what became the 7.62mm M1943 round only a month later, with the first batch of ammunition loaded with flat-based lead-cored bullets being range-tested that December.

Some sources claim that the 7.62x39 was no more than a copy of a German Geco cartridge for the Vollmer M 35 carbine, designed in 1934/35 by the aforementioned H.G.Winter. However, as we have seen, the cartridges designed for that gun were quite different, having larger case diameters. The round often cited as the model for the M1943 is the 7.62x38.5 "Mittelpatrone", but the diameter of that case is also larger than the M1943's and, according to Dynamit Nobel (Geco's postwar parent company), it dates from 1960. There is therefore no known German cartridge of which the 7.62x39 M1943 could have been a copy. The authors of a Russian history of the M1943, who had access to Soviet archives, were unable to find reliable information as to whether the USSR had any previous knowledge of the development of intermediate rounds in the West.

The base dimensions are similar to the Carcano, but are not identical:
Carcano: rim diam = 11.37mm, base diam = 11.31mm
M1943: rim = 11.30mm, base = 11.28mm
(source: Huon's "Military Rifle & MG Cartridges")

The Russians do not try to hide the fact that the development of the M1943 round was prompted and inspired by that of the 7.92mm Kurz, as you an see from the extract above. But there is no evidence to suggest, and no reason to believe, that they copied any existing cartridge. Why should they? Cartridge design isn't exactly rocket science, just look at the huge number of different rounds turned out by small US companies.

 

[Dave Markowitz]

IMO, it's pretty clear that Kalashnikov borrowed ideas from others for his design. E.g., as mentioned above, the JMB-designed safety of the Remington Model 8 and 81. Another feature I have not seen mentioned here yet is the fire control group (trigger, hammer, disconnector). Compare it with that of the M1 Garand, they are very similar.

In the end, so what? The end result is the synthesis of several good ideas and may just be the best service rifle of the 20th Century.

 

[Slamfire]

Of all the designers, JMB was the greatest genius as far as coming up with innovations on his own. Even then, he did work with others including his brother. But, he of all great designers - was the most innovative without the use of design teams.

I totally agree with this. From what I read, he would file and grind his ideas on a workbench, go out and shoot them. Improve them, give them to friends to try, improve them again, more friends, and finally sell the designs to Winchester. He also created bunches of non firearms devices.

The span, variety and the fact his stuff always worked, I am in total awe of John Browning.

Mozart is to music like John Browning is to firearms.

 

[Joe Demko]

and the fact his stuff always worked

Nitpick: The stuff he sold to manufacturers and that reached the market worked. JMB, like any designer of mechanical devices, had ideas that didn't pan out and never left his shop.

 

[Rifleman 173]

A couple of years ago, Mr. K. admitted that he DID copy some of the parts of the AK-47 based off of.... AMERICAN firearms. In an article he said that the took the idea of using a magazine from the M-1 carbine. He took the length of the AK from the idea of the length of the Thompson .45 submachinegun. He took the idea of using a .30 caliber bullet from our M-1 Garand rifle along with the idea of making his rifle semi-automatic or full-automatic fire from us. When he put it all together he ended up with a 7.62 X 39 cartridge in a combat rifle about the general size of our popular Thompson. He was actually kind of amazed that we had not thought about doing something similar ourselves being that our nation had all the pieces of technology in front of us on an everyday basis. That's what the one article I read said about how the AK-47 came to be and why, to this day, he denies using any German gun to model his prototype AK-47s after. From the article, I got the impression that Mr. K. still hates the Germans with a passion even this many years after WW2.

 

[briansmithwins]

I just read Kalashnikov's biography. He says that he was inspired by the Garand for the bolt. He also compared his action (for the assault rifle competition) to Tokarev's by saying the Tokarev tried to make everything so close together that dust couldn't get in between the parts, his action was 'hung' in space so that dust could fall out of it.

Good read, I don't recall Kalashnikov mentioning that they had Germans serving as design consultants, but I might have missed that. He did talk about education himself by reading books about firearms while he was in hospital. BSW

 

[Cosmoline]

As the old Russian proverb goes, "the best is the enemy of good enough."

This was of course taken from Voltaire, who said "the perfect is the enemy of the good" ;-)

 

[Tony Williams]

In an article he said that the took the idea of using a magazine from the M-1 carbine. He took the length of the AK from the idea of the length of the Thompson .45 submachinegun. He took the idea of using a .30 caliber bullet from our M-1 Garand rifle along with the idea of making his rifle semi-automatic or full-automatic fire from us. When he put it all together he ended up with a 7.62 X 39 cartridge in a combat rifle about the general size of our popular Thompson.

That is complete BS. He had nothing at all to do with the design of the 7.62x39 cartridge; this was settled before he got involved, because the Soviets had prototypes of the SKS carbine and the RPD LMG in this calibre about three years before the AK-47 emerged.

And the fact that the M1943 cartridge is of 7.62mm calibre had nothing whatsoever to do with the USA; it was because the Soviets were already making 7.62mm barrels and 7.62x54R ammo by the godzillion, and it was cheaper to stick with their existing calibre.

The fact of the matter is that the Soviets had truckloads of StG 44 guns before the end of the war, and it is impossible to imagine that their gun design teams didn't have as many as they wanted to play with. Kalashnikov didn't copy it, but I expect that he took it as a model to improve on.

 

[Cel]

Well, I certainly don't know who's behind the design of the AK-47, but I do know it's a design I don't want to be in front of.

Matt-J2 LOL! That was classic.

 

[LeibstandarteAdH]

Also, i think the point is a little more along the lines of the fact that MK seems to deny the existance of ANY 'design team' of any kind, saying that in fact he invented the design now known as the AK-47 while recovering in the hospital after recieving a battlefield wound as a tanker on the eastern front.

 

[RP88]

this is like saying that the movie 'Independence Day' copied 'War of The Worlds'

or that 'Platoon' copied 'Full Metal Jacket'

or that Toyota stole Honda's idea

theres more than just a likeness of ideas and themes that define something. If that weren't true, then every company on the planet, and every writer, movie director, store company, etc. could sue their competitors for copying them.

Kalshnikov (and whoever else put the idea into motion) saw the Sturmgwehr, and was probably inspired by it. He noticed that the grips, stocks, curvature of the mags, etc. were ingenius and efficient, and did not screw with them. But, he did think of a much better and simply better operating system, better charge handle ergonomics, better receiver shape for the gun, made it a bit shorter, and several other things that makes the AK an AK and not a Russian-variant STG, just like how the HK416 isn't a German variant of the M4 (even though I'm starting to think it is )

 

[rocinante]

My understanding is the CZ58 is a lot closer to the Stg44 design than the AK47 is. No one starts from scratch except god. well rarely is anything truly original created.

 

[Levan9X19]

well I always sad there is a little of JMB in every gun.

My opinion is that Kalashnikov was not sole player during competition for new service rifle. It is impossible that young sergeant will outmaneuver much more heavy weight constructors who have influence, ranks and useful contacts, also it seems impossible to brake the rules of competition and this stayed unnoticed. Someone much more influential backed MTK during trials and competition. Also the influence of western weapons system for me is obvious, there is no single self invented assembly designed from zero by M.T.K, all assemblies depending on how they are designed and how they perform where well known before.

Also it will be useful to post here the text of a patent which was taken not so long time ago for AK design. Some very interesting information is there. I have only russian version but there must be also an english version.

 

[MD_Willington]

meh, who cares who invented it...

where can we get cad files for the AK-46 and who can machine all the required parts domestically...

Last time I checked, AK-46 was not on any naughty lists in the USA!

 

[PercyShelley]

Could anyone in the know comment on how similar the SVT-40, K43, SKS and STG-44 are related? I stripped a K43 and SKS side-by side, and was rather surprised at how similar they seemed. The gas systems in particular seem rather closely related. I always figured that the G43/K43 was a German attempt to match the SVT-40 by copying its gas system and mating it to the G41 locking system, while the Mkh-42 (b) and the STG-44 were a scaled down version thereof.

Is that anywhere near to how it went down?

 

[kBob]

OK I admit it.

It was me. I am a time traveller that was sent back in time to ensure that the Soviet Union was not dominated by the US immediatly after WWII and so handed the complete designs to Klashy-baby. Unfortunately things did not turn out as planned by the aliens that sent me back and after bouncing around a bit I have been "walking home" every since.

OK I made that up.

Actually it was Carbine Williams that designed the AK just to prove he could do something not relateed to sporting shotguns or a gas tappet system.

Darn it, that Bill Clinton syndrome I have just keeps acting up.

Personally I think we have seen enough of folks seeming angry over their pet theory on the birth of the AK being challenged.

The Soviets seemed to think Kalashnikov had enough to do with it to put his name on it.

He says it was him.

Sounds like a done deal to me.

Let's move on.

-Joe Izusu

er I mean,

-Bob Hollingsworth

 

[Z71]

I bought an M1 rifle a few months back, then bought a WASR-10 hi-cap just before Christmas.

Don't know what the original full auo/select fire AK trigger design looks like, but the Tapco G2 system is Garand style after a fashion. Then, if you look at it from an operating concept, the whole thing is suspiciously similiar to a Garand, just rearranged and simplified!

I don't think Kalishnikov pioneered any new territory. He just picked and chose technology, then wrapped it into a neat compact package.

I don't think he ever claimed to be a great gun designer along the lines of John Browning. He probably just had to get something good going so he didn't end up in a gulag, or at the front!