Why are berettas mocked so often?

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Don't have an answer to the mocking question.

My wife's pistol of choice is the 9mm Beretta Cougar 8000 - that's the one with the rotating barrel instead of the "traditional" link and pin. I don't like the long trigger pull, but she is used to it and I sure wouldn't want to stand in front of it when she is shooting. (My 9mm preference is the S&W 5946, but I REALLY like my .45ACP 1911A1.)
 
My issued Beretta 92FS was totally reliable for the 16 years I carried it, on duty, and at times concealed off duty. I shot it in the combat pistol event in the Ohio Police and Fire games three years, medalled 4 times, (3 individual, 1 team). The gun was more accurate than I was. Never doubted that it would work when I needed it to.
 
When I finally got my hands on a Beretta 92 I was expecting to be impressed. The gun was beautifully made, phosphate finish (I believe) was incredible. Aesthetically pleasing, nice ergos, although when I look at that top-cutaway slide I have to think "why?"

Sadly, when the lead flew I was very disappointed. Quite poor accuracy. My Ruger P89 ate its lunch with ease.
 
A few things to report here. We'll start with the 1911 VS Beretta. When I first fired my 10mm Beretta at the range, I ran in to a guy there who had 3 or 4 1911A1s out. I invited him to shoot my Beretta but he said he would never shoot a beretta, going in to details about how much he hates it for replacing the 1911. This seams to be a major cause of Beretta hatred among old school military fans, as if Beretta devised a sinister plot to infiltrate the military and force them to replace the 1911 with their gun. To our dear 1911 fans, if you have a problem with it, then take it up with the politicians and military personnel who made the decision. After all, Sig Sauer, Walther and even S&W threw a 9mm at the military. I don't see you complaining about them. The only difference between them and Beretta is that they lost in the trials. In that respect, I wonder what the reputation of the Sig P-226 or Walther P-88 would be like had they won the trial and been subjected to the long term and wide spread abuse that the Beretta constantly goes through which always brings out the worst in a gun. With the reputations these guns get, it would almost sound like it'd be in a manufacturers best interest to avoid getting a military contract.
Now for ammo. People are always complaining about the 9mm VS .45ACP for efficiency, apparently ignoring history. Here is a historical wake up call for you. In WW II, the US used the .45ACP in our sub guns and pistols. In the same war, Germany used the 9mm in their pistols and sub guns. Germany ended up with a considerably higher kill ratio against the US. Especially in the military, these cartridges have ups and downs to each other which probably do more to change when/how a gun fails to protect it's user rather then changing the odds. This is REALLY not an issue in the civilian wold since when JHPs are in the game, what the 9mm lacks in size and weight it makes up for in energy.
Now, myths tend to have reality in their roots even when the myth is total nonsense. The Beretta like any other gun is not without problems. As one of our users pointed out already, part of the problem is that the military lacks the provisions to customize a beretta like Civilians can. With decent action polishing, sights customizing, spring upgrades and the like, the Beretta can stand up to quite a bit of abuse without failure, though the standard (original) models were not meant to handle +P ammo for the duration that the Beretta is often subjected to, though it CAN handle +P ammo if moderately used.
Overall, I can't imagine any 1911A1 being as dependable as some of the tricked out Berettas I have seen. The sheer design of the gun seams to have some limitation in potential though I would love to be proven wrong. Not to say that the 1911A1 is not beyond reasonably reliable but to the extent of what I have seen, I have more faith in the basic design of the Beretta then that of the 1911A1. In action, this has been confirmed. In one occasion, on a cold and humid early spring morning, I watched a Beretta jam a few times from metal expansion in the design, and by noon the gun was as reliable as any other. That is the only time I have seen a cared for beretta jam. I have seen well kept 1911A1s jam many times for all kinds of reasons.
In any case, both are good guns and for the most part, they are face value guns. If you like the Beretta, then get one. It's a great gun and fixes for just about everything the military complains about are available, if at all necessary in the civilian world. The same is true of the 1911A1. Smaller capacity but bigger bullets. Both are modest in recoil and accuracy and as long as you are taking care of them, you shouldn't have to worry about them failing on you.
 
Beretta, last I checked made no 10mm pistol.........................
There are some modified ones out there;
http://www.berettaforum.net/vb/showthread.php?p=310891#post310891


Here is a historical wake up call for you. In WW II, the US used the .45ACP in our sub guns and pistols. In the same war, Germany used the 9mm in their pistols and sub guns. Germany ended up with a considerably higher kill ratio against the US.
Would you please provide a reference for this, Id like to educate myself on the matter. Thanks

Regards,
Greg
 
OH BTW did you know that you can stop a berreta from firing by simply pushing on the barrel. i.e. hold gun and barrel tight to chest aand I do mean TIGHT!!! They teach us that in the Corps.

Evidently, pistol training has changed dramatically since I was an active Marine, as I don't recall them ever talking about this subject. As previously mentioned, this isn't a fault of the gun whatsoever.

I am also going to have to take umbrage with you on the inaccuracy issue. I carried a pistol for a couple of years when I was the gunner in our squad, and I never had any great difficulty with accuracy, nor did anyone else. None of us particularly cared for the round (which is evidently being addressed now), but I don't recall accuracy being an issue.

Not saying your wrong, dude, but your experiences are vastly different than mine.
 
Beretta 92/96 series- old & new

I had a M-9 Beretta issued to me for 2.5yrs in my US army MP service. A grip screw came out but overall it held up well. I never used it in combat, just MP patrol and range use.
I bought a NIB surplus Beretta 96D from a state agency and had it for about 2.0yrs. It had no real problems with .40S&W JHPs either but it was very big and heavy. I bought another .40S&W model 96 in 2007 but had to sell it before I could really shoot or carry it.

IMO; the Beretta 92/96 series are well made but have gone past the prime for military/LE/CC/protection use. These pistols are heavy and offer no real advantages over other newer designs like the HK P-2000 LEM, Glock 21/22/17, S&W military and police, SIGsauer DAKs in P-229/P-226, etc.
Beretta lost many US police agencies for some of these reasons. Is the M-9/92/96 a good weapon? YES! Are there better pistols out there for the same price? YES!

Rusty S
 
The Beretta 92 I carried was flawless in the Marines and Coast Guard, My current 92 is even more flawless. Not accurate out to 7 yards? None of mine ever got that memo.

The PX4 and CX4 are excellent guns. The Cougar was well received. Only the 9000S seems to be the unloved step-child.

People are still bitter over replacing the 1911 in military service.
The 1911 I was issued before the switch was a old worn rattle trap which went bang everytime and worked well.

The brand new Beretta 92 I was issued a year later was beautiful, blue, tight went bang everytime and worked well.

Today my issued Beretta 92 may be an old worn rattle trap which probably goes bang everytime and works well. Who knows but Beretta mocked...shame!
 
OH BTW did you know that you can stop a berreta from firing by simply pushing on the barrel. i.e. hold gun and barrel tight to chest aand I do mean TIGHT!!! They teach us that in the Corps.

I'm glad about that. The last thing I want to do is fire a pistol out of battery. That's why a lot of pistols have that safety feature.

As far as accuracy goes, I'm going to have to disagree with you. I'm a Combat Marksmanship Instructor in the Marines, and while yes, I've seen a bunch with sights that are off, but it only becomes noticable at 25+ yards. Every 92 I've shot, and most of the shooters I've trained to shoot them have shot them quite well. Every now and again I get a shooter who says "this gun is junk, I can't hit a thing!". After I put a few rounds downrange in the black with it, it shuts them up.

The "wings" on the locking block are a pretty constant problem. Then again, we beat those pistols up pretty good. I'd watch one shooter go through 200 rounds, then hand the pistol off to the next guy without cleaning (and then continuing the chain for several days).

Overall, I'd say they're a decent gun, I carried one in Ramadi and Fallujah for a while. I never had a problem with the one I got issued and maintained well. The only reason I won't buy one is the locking block problem.
 
which made it easier for smaller hands (translate: female) to handle and control.

Actually, the Beretta 92 has a thicker grip than most pistols, and a lot of people don't like it for that reason. I owned a 92 some years ago but sold it. I have smaller than average hands, and I just didn't like the feel of the grip.
 
Every now and again I get a shooter who says "this gun is junk, I can't hit a thing!". After I put a few rounds downrange in the black with it, it shuts them up.

+1 on that statement. Most of the accuracy problems can be traced directly to the trigger man.

I've had a few original USGI pre-A1 1911s with rifling all but non-existent in the rear 2/3rds of the bore that would stay inside the 8 ring of a B27 target at 25 yards without a lot of effort.

While not a raging fan of the 9mm cartridge...if I were restricted to a 9mm, I wouldn't have a single misgiving with the M92.
 
I have two comments on the replies of this thread.

Why the open slide? It darn near makes stove pipes a non-issue and improves reliability in almost all cases. The open slide throws debris out of the action upon firing. I do admit, though, it also allows debris into the action in some environments.

Why do people refer to the M9/92FS as the M92? Neither Beretta nor the US military have ever used such a designation.
 
Yeah, the Beretta M92.
What an absolutely horrible design.
That is why it has been copied or license built in Italy, USA, France, Brazil, Chile, Egypt, and South Africa and I think I am missing a couple other places.
It serves all over the world and the only handgun more prolific is the FN High Power and the only other semi-auto pistol that comes close to the number of issuing nations is the Glock and in actual numbers issued the two are awfully close.
Yep, horrible pistol.
To answer the previous question, there are several variations of the design all differing slightly in the operation of the manual safety.
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Don't think i've seen much mocking...
I used to own a Beretta 96... the .40S&W version of the 92FS. I sold it because it shot way left with any ammunition i fed it - and i didn't like how it vibrated in my hands when it fired; like it was too light and something inside was 'twanging'. The fellow I sold it to seemed to think that it shooting 'slightly' left at 10 feet was fine... good for him!

Since I sold it, I've read at least 2 other reports of people having problems with a 96 shooting very far to the left; i suspect a bad run of guns/rifling... I had about 6 people shoot the gun and they all had problems missing to the left... the sights would have had to have been pushed wayyyyy off to make up for it. Lining them up perfectly at 100 yards resulted in the round hitting 10+ yards left of where it was aimed consistently. I bought it BNIB from Sports Authority. I'm sure there are many good 92/96's around, but my experience with the one I purchased left me unenthusiastic about Beretta's.
 
1911Tuner said:
I had an older M92 for a while...the ones with the frame-mounted safety that didn't decock the hammer...and found it to be completely reliable with any reasonable ammunition, and more than accurate enough for its intended purpose.

Wow! I've never seen a Beretta with the frame mounted safety, only Taurus's. Can one still find the older Berettas around?

Thanks
 
Nothing but love for the Beretta 92 series. The current models have a frame which is slightly dished to shorten the trigger reach (first seen on the Elite series) which is reminiscent of the Cougar's grip frame.

My girl calls the Beretta the smoothest handgun she's ever shot.
 
Yeah, there's always some fmr cook, clerk, pogue, that is dissatisfied with any piece of gear they're issued.
The M9 is not perfect, it has the tilting lock block that does, on occasion, break off a wing, but this is usually after a lot of hard use. The same happens with the swinging link on the M1911A1 barrel, under the same conditions. I've seen it happen to a couple of my students' issue M1911A1s. Things like this happen when you push the weapons hard. The British Marines & Army have equipment failures happen to the HiPowers that are used in their CQB courses.
I have seen the M9 undergo some terriffic punishment while in FAST Co's CQB course and later as an Instructor at the old MCSF Bn Pac. Schools. I have only seen 2 locking blocks break and these were on the CQB course M9s that had already had in excess of 40,000 rds through them. If you've been to a military CQB course, you know the kind of punishment all the equipment goes through. The pistol I was issued as a CQB student had over 40,000 rds through it and it was still extremely accurate, as I had no problems qualifying at the very stringent surgical shooting levels that were required.
My only minor complaint w/the M9 was, after countless, dryfirings, transition drills And weapons presentation from the Eagle Industries holsters, the right side safety lever would eventualy break off, after getting caught on the outer edge of the holster upon reholstering,time and time again, it was weak, as it was a "pinned-in-place" thin stamping. This was the cause of several good cuts along the edge of the hand and mangled several flight gloves until we filed off the sharp edges.
In closing, the M9 may not be the strongest design, nor the lightest, most slim pistol out there, but at the rates that it does develop problems, the other pistols develop problems of their own that are intrinsic to their designs.
All In all, I would be(and have been) very confident in the M9 while in harm's way and feel that no other 9mm service pistol ( even my beloved Hi-Power) would have performed much, if any, better under the same conditions in which I've seen the M9 suffer....
 
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Why do people refer to the M9/92FS as the M92? Neither Beretta nor the US military have ever used such a designation.

It's just gunny talk. M9 + 92F = M92. It also indicates experience with both.
 
Why are berettas mocked so often?
1. They're over-sized for their caliber, with excessive trigger reach for many.
2. They have feed problems with the issue magazines.
3. They don't hold up as well as other guns.
4. Unless accurized by AMTU or other good gunsmith, the trigger is AWFUL. A friend of a friend had a 96D as a duty weapon. The trigger was SO bad, it was all you could do to keep on the paper, two handed at 50 feet.

I don't like D/A autos which cannot be carried cocked and locked. The trigger reach is invariably too long for me. That rules the Beretta out for me right there.
 
Wow! I've never seen a Beretta with the frame mounted safety, only Taurus's. Can one still find the older Berettas around?
In additioin to a frame mounted safety, the original guns had the magazine release button at the bottom of the grip frame, on the left side.
 
The H&K Mk23 is the SOCOM pistol of today and get use a fair amount and is liked by some if not most of the SOCOM crew. Proven reliable and just as good if not better then it's predisessor the 1911. Then again just like any firearm, once again, it's really all the user, weather condition, circumstance and ammo.

SOCOM only bought a handful of Mk 23s, and most units never adopted it at all. Those that did primarily use other handguns. Overall, it's solidly made, but kind of a flop as a design, since even most operator types find the grip too fat and control placement too much of a stretch.

Why do people refer to the M9/92FS as the M92? Neither Beretta nor the US military have ever used such a designation.

What is usually referred to as the Beretta 92 is sometimes also referred to as the Model 92, which is a correct usage, even if less common. Kind of like how the occasional person will call, say, a Glock 19 and M19 or Model 19 in different articles.

I have seen the M9 undergo some terriffic punishment while in FAST Co's CQB course and later as an Instructor at the old MCSF Bn Pac. Schools. I have only seen 2 locking blocks break and these were on the CQB course M9s that had already had in excess of 40,000 rds through them. If you've been to a military CQB course, you know the kind of punishment all the equipment goes through.

Where I work, the basic rule of thumb is that you'll break one locking block per day per 50 shooters on the flat range doing combat marksmanship drills.
 
OK, I'll take a stab at this one.

I think a lot of the animosity towards Berettas is the fact that they were chosen to replace the 1911 in the Army. It didn't help any that some of them had catastrophic failures during testing and injured some of the people running the tests (a friend of mine was actually one of the guys that got smacked in the forehead by a broken slide), or that it wasn't in fact the over all winner, but the lowest bid that met the minimum requirements (this is debatable according to some, so take it or leave it).

Another downfall of these guns are the ergonomics. They are too thick for a lot of people with smaller hands, and the safety often gets decocked while the operator is racking the slide. I have also never met anyone who could drop a magazine from a 92 without changing their grip, but all of these arguments are subjective.

As far as reliability goes, to be fair they are almost impossible to stove pipe from limp wristing, and I don't really hear much in the way of feeding failures except with bad magazines. Beretta redesigned the slide, so the catastrophic failures are no longer an issue, and they now have some of the most advanced machining equipment in the world.

Honestly, I think another big factor is that they were new, unfamiliar, different. A lot of folks flocked to them, so some of those that were somewhat skeptical of their popularity became cynical to the point of unreasonable bias, whether they had any experience with them or not.....(think GLOCK)

My final observation on the matter.......Try one out and put it through it's paces. If you like it, great. If you don't, no big deal. Try something else. You are the one who's life hangs in the balance with your handgun decisions, so don't just go solely on the recommendations or criticisms of others.
 
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