Why are USMC vets such good shots?

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raindog

raindog

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Discussing Oswald's assassination of Kennedy got me thinking - why are USMC vets such good shots? I've known several and of course read about the notorious ones (Oswald, Charles Whitman, etc.)

Obviously the USMC is a great place to learn to shoot, but what is that they do that turns out such great shots? Is it just lots and lots of practice? I know they emphasize basic marksmanship much more than the army.
 
to quote a USMC vet (my dad): there are no noncombatants in the Corps. every Marine is a rifleman.
 
Former 0311 here. i think it comes down to the MARKSMANSHIP training that Marine recruits go through, then every Marine goes through again every year. Every time we qualified we spent a week in the classroom and "snaping in" (aiming a cleared rifle at a barrel and dry firing, from solid shooting positions and practicing the fundamentals: natural point of aim, bone support, muscle relaxation. Cheek weld, eye relief, sight picture, natural respitory pause, trigger control and follow through. A solid shooting sling.
The Marine qual course is about marksmanship. Learning the fundamentals of shooting that you can apply later in combat.
When people complain that they cant shoot as well in IBA and helmet, 782 gear, I tell them that shooting is shooting. Nothing changes, you just have to adapt all of your training to the gear.
 
To expand on what was said above - when you join the marines as an enlisted man, you go through boot camp, and then you're trained as an infantryman, regardless of what you wind up doing in the corps. Same thing if you're an officer - you go through the 11 week OCS or PLC course, which is similar to boot camp, and then you spend six months at The Basic School, the whole point of which is to train infantry officers to lead a platoon. This means that no matter what you wind up doing - if you fly jets, if you drive trucks, if you load airplanes with a forklift - you still received training to be the world's most effective fighting machine for almost half a year. The army and navy do not do this - once they have you through the basic training or OCS, you focus purely on your specialty. EVERY Marine has to know how to fight and has to qualify regularly with their weapons, while soldiers in the other branches only have to receive this training and meet the re-qualification if they're in an infantry role.
 
What the army teaches (for the rank and file) soldiers is really just familiarization, and it's sporadic. Marines are trained to breathe, relax, focus, and shoot in all positions, timed, out to 500 yards. That's a few steps past what the army gets, until you go to more advanced courses, if ever.
 
There's a great scene in Full Metal Jacket where the drill sergeant explains USMC accuracy using Charles Whitman and Lee Harvey Oswald as examples of amazing shooting. Both men were US Marines. If you haven't seen FMJ, do - I used to work with a Marine and he said that aside from the physical abuse at the hands of the Drill Sergeants, it's very accurate to what Basic is actually like. IIRC, the guy who plays the drill sergeant was actually a USMC sergeant before he started acting.
 
The Marines shoot better because they're Marines, and because they have an awesome creed:

This is my rifle. There are many like it, but this one is mine. My rifle is my best friend. It is my life. I must master it as I master my life. My rifle, without me, is useless. Without my rifle, I am useless. I must fire my rifle true. I must shoot straighter than any enemy who is trying to kill me. I must shoot him before he shoots me. I will....

My rifle and myself know that what counts in this war is not the rounds we fire, the noise of our burst, nor the smoke we make. We know that it is the hits that count. We will hit...

My rifle is human, even as I, because it is my life. Thus, I will learn it as a brother. I will learn its weakness, its strength, its parts, its accessories, its sights and its barrel. I will keep my rifle clean and ready, even as I am clean and ready. We will become part of each other. We will...

Before God I swear this creed. My rifle and myself are the defenders of my country. We are the masters of our enemy. We are the saviors of my life. So be it, until victory is America's and there is no enemy, but Peace.
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But seriously, I shot 40 out of 40 with a Colt M4A1, Elcan SpecterDR on 4x zoom, and some nice sandbags last time and I was trained by the Army.

40of40.gif

An E7 who was shooting with me that day put 39 out of his 40 inside the circles that are inside the silhouettes.

Then again, there's only been a few times I've shot at a target that was over 25m away on an Army range since basic. The range I go to as a civilian goes out to 200 yards so I shoot at that distance when off duty. Those lucky Marines probably get to shoot at pop up targets routinely. Course, they're also the ones out there shooting at real targets on a regular basis, so maybe that has something to do with it.
 
They are taught how to shoot properly, and then they practice it... unlike most other branches where they are taught to shoot correctly and then they practice it once a year if they are lucky.
 
And happygeek, I've pulled a few 38s and 40s on the range too, but seriously, this won't impress a marine. This is what they would call familiarization. For their rifle qual, you will be doing this scored, timed, at 500 meters from the offhand. It's a whole different game.
 
Yeah, I had a nice little red dot on 4x mag to aim with and I was using sandbags, so. I've hit a few things out of the back of a moving Humvee though, does that count?
 
Oswald was a poor shot and my cousin,who is a former Marine,could not hit a bull in the ass with a bass fiddle.Not all former Marines are great shots.
 
mlaustin
he said that aside from the physical abuse at the hands of the Drill Sergeants, it's very accurate to what Basic is actually like. IIRC, the guy who plays the drill sergeant was actually a USMC sergeant before he started acting.
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There are no Drill sergeants in the Marines, they are Drill Instructors.


mljdeckard
For their rifle qual, you will be doing this scored, timed, at 500 meters from the offhand.
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Bull, We marines are smart enough to lay down when shooting at 500 meters.

Marines shoot a string of slow fire from the 200-, 300- and 500-yard lines and a string of rapid fire on the 200- and 300-yard lines.
 
Folk will often excel at what their employing organization rewards them for.

Interesting to see how much more the Corps values marksmanship compared to the Army.

Most Sheriff and Police depts, from what I've read hereabouts, do not value and reward marksmanship - too bad.
 
The last time I shot on the range was when I was closing El Toro and we had to drive down to Camp Pendleton.

This was when they changed the scoring to 65 points (hits in black were 1 point, misses were 0) instead of the old KD scoring of 250 points max. I ended up shooting a 54, IIRC, and winning a bottle of Cuervo out of it because I was ADSW (Active Duty Special Work) and hadn't been to the range since late '94.



Kris
 
Folk will often excel at what their employing organization rewards them for.
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Funny how that works, eh?

Seriously though, marksmanship was drilled into our skulls and even though I was in a communications MOS, every Marine is still a rifleman first and foremost.
 
Thank God not all Marines are great shots or my brother would be dead.

Several years ago my brothers buddy show up with a friend to shoot. My brother an his buddy are Army Nam vets, an during the shooting he finds out the friend he had never met was a Marine vet.....my brother tells him the time (he was a FO) when he was coming up to a Marine post from the jungle, a Marine yells at him for the password, an my brother exposes himself an gives the password...the Marine shot at him an missed! My brother went off...so my brother tells this new friend as soon as this guy shot I knew he was a Marine..."How did you know that?" asked the ex-Marine...."Because he missed." said my brother, my brothers friend cracked up along with my brother...but the new friend was so mad he almost got into a fist fight with my brother. He left an has never came back.
 
he said that aside from the physical abuse at the hands of the Drill Sergeants, it's very accurate to what Basic is actually like.

Your friend obviously didn't go through basic in the 60s when FMJ is set. I went through basic in the Army in the 60s and the amount of physical abuse there depended on where you went for basic. At Ft Dix there was virtually none but other posts you might experience a little. Nothing like the Marines though. My friends who went USMC in the 60s said the only thing not accurate in FMJ is when they had the guy marching on the parade field with his pants down according to them. The officers would not have allowed that. All other stuff in FMJ was "de ja veux". FMJ was R. Lee Ermey's first big role.

Ermey said in a History Channel show on NCOs,

I'm not going to say I never laid a hand on a private but its like this. You can teach a private all day and he won't learn. Let me lay my hands on him and he'll learn in 5 minutes and never forget.

From what I've been told you could complain about the physical abuse but that would get you recycled into another platoon and the DIs all knew why you were there. The real reason trainees didn't complain was because "you want to be a Marine and you can't take a few punches".

This is how it was related to me.
 
Why are USMC vets such good shots?
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Unlike the Army (at least when I was in in the '80s), they teach traditional rifle marksmanship and take it VERY seriously. Back in the early part of the last century, the Army regularly outshot the Marines. The Marines decided that that wasn't acceptable and did something about it.
 
Well, that AND it's 1/3 of your cutting score (promotion) through the rank of Sgt.

And for the LOVE of PETE, in the Marine Corps it's "Boot Camp", not "Basic". There is nothing "Basic" about Marine Boot Camp. "Boot Camp". It's "Boot Camp". <g>

Dan
 
the "guy" is a retired Master Gunnery Sergeant ..R. Lee Ermey
 
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Why are USMC vets such good shots?
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Because we are Marines and Marines are riflemen.
BuckM1USMC.gif


Don't let the hat confuse you. I was later on a Army Warrant Officer (pilot) but I'll always be a Marine Sergeant at heart.:)
M1buckshooting.gif
 
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