Why are USMC vets such good shots?

[JTH]

Since I haven't had to serve in the military. I was going to mention the movie
FMJ but I didn't want to offend any Marines. The scenes where they were timed in assembling their rifles and on the range was excellent.
As stated the actor playing their DI was Gunny R. Lee Ermey. He has some excellent shows on what I believe is the History Channel on various military weapons and their evolvution to modern day weapons.
As a high school teacher, I had a rather rebelious student, who could be a rude pain in the butt. He enlisted in the Marines after high school. He came back to visit me and what a transformation. I hope and pray he is well.

 

[M2 Carbine]

Ermey said in a History Channel show on NCOs,

I'm not going to say I never laid a hand on a private but its like this. You can teach a private all day and he won't learn. Let me lay my hands on him and he'll learn in 5 minutes and never forget.

I would tell you what boot camp was like in 1956 but you would not believe it anyhow.
"Full Metal Jacket" was the closest movie I ever saw that is something like Parris Island in 1956, but the actual experience was much harder.
The training did make you a tough, hard headed SOB, that will not quit, and that served me well the rest of my life.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ribbon_Creek_incident

 

[MagnumDweeb]

My grandfather was a Marine Raider in the Pacific in WWII, his father was a Marine Cavalryman that did his service in Peking during the Boxer rebellion. My grandpa told me stories about Marines in WWI(that were told to him by Marines that served in WWI) and saw one episode he told me about confirmed on the History Channel more or less where the Germans were hanging out under the shade of trees five hundred yards out from the French line. When Marines saw that and didn't understand it, the French advisor explained that the Germans knew that the French's range was four hundred yards. In short order the Marine's picked out targets and started picking them off with ease to both the French and German's surprise.

My grandpa taught me to shoot pistols, rifles I figured out on my own and read some books. Most folks can't believe I taught myself but I really just borrow from what my grandpa taught me about pistols. Once you understand the unique characteristics of your rifle (say like a Swedish Mauser is naturally zeroed at 300 yards[I've been told] without use of windage and range sights), it's a matter of mastering the sights and you how you use them, then it's trigger pull and control, then learning how you react to the gun firing. When I was twelve my grandfather took his S&W .38 special (my Uncle who inherited the gun sold it, I want to remember it being a K-38) and loaded with spent cartridges. He showed me how to hold it, hold my shoulders, and spent a few minutes learning how to breathe properly. Then it was dry firing on the spent cartridgese and seeing how much the gun moved. There's more to it than that but I used most of what he taught me to learn rifles.

My grandfather won lots of rifle competitions before he had to sell his rifles in his third divorce and barely kept his pistols.

Key point he told me, something he noticed, most marines he knew hailed from backgrounds where hunting and shooting were as natural as learning to read, a right of passage. When he served in Korea and met lots of army guys he learned lots of them hailed from New York, Massachusetts, etc.etc. I figure if you take a country boy who grew up hunting, and for a good many, hunting being a key means of putting food on the table(a good deer could supply meet for month if managed right as my grandpa told me his family experienced during the Great Depression). Hand him a government issued rifle, and teach him more about shooting, you end up an end product of a marksman that can't be replicated or beat by any other means.

A buddy of mine is a Marine Reservist, he can't shoot pistols for worth past twenty yards, oh he can hold a silhouette fair enough, but he can own me at 200 yards on my own AR-15 in .223(fortunately not my AR in 5.45x39) which is as far as we can shoot around my way. I can keep a pie plat grouping, he can keep a playing card almost. I still take some pride though he fears the kick of my 8mm Mausers. Hand the man an AR and watch out.

 

[M2 Carbine]

FMJ but I didn't want to offend any Marines. The scenes where they were timed in assembling their rifles and on the range was excellent.

I don't recall how they did it in the movie but we actually did this blindfolded (M1 Garand).

Some years later I taught my Wife to quickly disassemble and reassemble the 1911A1 blindfolded. She could also outshoot all my friends with a rifle or pistol.

 

[Maelstrom]

You also need to bear in mind that there is a certain mentality that goes along with people who choose to be Marines in the first place. We......uh.......we're.....different.

 

[doc2rn]

Semper Fi

Because all Marines are rifleman first and they will always opt out for a larger caliber weapon when given the choice.

 

[mljdeckard]

And Brian, I didn't fill the whole phrase. What I meant to emphasize was that marines shoot out to 500 meters, where the army only only goes out to 300, and only with a non-graduated man-shaped target. We don't do any offhand at all anymore in our rifle qual.

 

[edmondsonpr]

Thank God the Marines haven't been told to spray and pray!

One shot for one kill/hit (most of the time) is what makes them the devastating warriors they are.

None of the other services teach aiming to the degree the Marines do. And I'm ex-Air Force (expert in M-16 and qual in .45).

 

[Cosmoline]

Heck, at 500 yards why even bother? That's what's air support is for

Exactly:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Iz5MwPsfyo&feature=related

My grandfather won lots of rifle competitions before he had to sell his rifles in his third divorce and barely kept his pistols.

Well that's the one thing that can even defeat a Marine. If spouses and girlfriends had been occupying Iwo Jima it never would have fallen. Particularly if they had agreed to cooperate.

 

[ClemY]

As someone who went through Marine PLC in the 60’s, I can say that we spent two weeks on the Known Distance Range snapping in and shooting. As someone who knew how to shoot before joining the Corps, they didn’t teach me too much, but certainly sharpened my skills. Many of the guys I knew also knew how to shoot before they got there.

While every Marine is a rifleman, when I completed flight school and joined a fighter squadron, we didn’t spend much time on the rifle range. I had to do most of my shooting on Tuesdays and Thursdays at lunch time and on the weekends.

While shooting an M-14 or 1911 was and is a lot of fun, there is nothing like rolling in and pumping 4,000 rds/min. of 20mm into a target (in my case, with a MK IV gun pod from an F-4).


My understanding is, Oswald failed to qualify with a rifle when he went through Boot Camp. In the Marine Corps, that is a very big deal. That is also why many feel he couldn't have been the person who shot Kennedy.

 

[fprefect]

Full Metal Jacket

There's a great scene in Full Metal Jacket where the drill sergeant explains USMC accuracy using Charles Whitman and Lee Harvey Oswald as examples of amazing shooting. Both men were US Marines. If you haven't seen FMJ, do - I used to work with a Marine and he said that aside from the physical abuse at the hands of the Drill Sergeants, it's very accurate to what Basic is actually like. IIRC, the guy who plays the drill sergeant was actually a USMC sergeant before he started acting.

If you're a History Channel fan like I am, the "actor" that played the role of the Army drill instructor was actually only hired by Stanley Kubrick to be an adviser to the actor who was to play the role of the DI. As things turned out, the "adviser", Gunnery Sgt (honorary) R. Lee Ermey ended up with the role and I believe was nominated for an academy award. It's been said he was the only actor Kubrick ever directed that he allowed to ad lib his lines.

Back to the History Channel, Ermey had a weekly program last year called mail call that dealt with various aspects of the military. This season he hosts a program called Lock and Load that does some fairly in depth studies of the various types and designs of military weapons used throughout history. Good shows, great host.

F. Prefect

 

[ming]

When I was at MCRD Parris Island many years ago we had one guy who failed to qualify at the rifle range. He had to march back to the barracks behind the platoon with his trousers around his ankles, sucking his thumb, and repeating the word 'UNK' (short for unqualified). And you need to ask why the MC produces good riflemen?

 

[GRIZ22]

I would tell you what boot camp was like in 1956 but you would not believe it anyhow.


M2 I'd believe you.

 

[JTH]

Has their been any documentation that a recruit has gone off the deep end and killed his DI as in the movie?Not all that get accepted are Marine material. I do have to agree to a certain extent that, that Marines are taught to be killing machines. It's definitely not a branch of the military for everyone.

 

[Pyzon]

he was coming up to a Marine post from the jungle, a Marine yells at him for the password, an my brother exposes himself an gives the password

Something strange other than a Jarhead missing when he shot at him would be
why he exposed himself in the first place.................Uh, unless you mean, he stood up to be seen

I was only a grunt but would make sure I was recognized before standing up, long before the exposing myself part.

Glad your brother was the benefit of poor shooting that day.

 

[skoro]

Back in the "Old Corps" (my time in the USMC) a Marine wasn't eligible for promotion if he hadn't qualified at the rifle or rifle AND pistol range (depending on MOS) in the past year. Marksmanship was definitely stressed. I'd be surprised if it still wasn't.

 

[M2 Carbine]

M2 I'd believe you.

OK, I'll tell you one of my favorite stories from Parris island (1956).

A DI hitting you was called "Thumping". Everyone up the chain of command knew that was part of the training. The training was interesting because they weren't trying to make men that would just instantly follow orders without thinking, that would be easy. They wanted men, no matter their rank, that would also think for themselves and could/would take charge if need be.



24 hours a day a DI was with us. He had a room/office in the barracks.
About two weeks before graduation I was walking "fire watch" in the barracks.
The DI on duty was a big mean Corporal that carried every punishment to the point that someone fell out, then got thumped.

The DI yelled "FIRE WATCH".
I ran down the squad bay and up the ladder (stairs) pounding my boots down as hard as I could. (We were no longer the scared shy boys of a couple months ago)
I reported at the DI's hatch (doorway), yelling as I pounded on the door frame. The DI was sitting at his desk opposite the hatch.

I don't know why the DI called me but by about the third sentence he started to rise from the chair yelling,
"Well suppose I knock your ******* *** through that *******wall."
(The shreet rock wall opposite every DI's hatch was always having to be repaired from the DI hitting the recruit and the recruit hitting the wall)

Even though it was many years ago I still remember thinking,
"**** you. I've been through that wall before. Take your best shot you *** ****".

The DI paused about halfway up, as if reading my mind he said,
"You wouldn't care would you?"

As loud as I could I answered, "Sir, NO SIR"

The DI looked at me for a minute then said, "Get out of here".

Years later, I realized that day the DI had seen what he wanted to see.

 

[BullfrogKen]

To expand on what was said above - when you join the marines as an enlisted man, you go through boot camp, and then you're trained as an infantryman, regardless of what you wind up doing in the corps.

Not exactly true. MCT - Marine Combat Training - does not make one a trained infantryman. Here's the mission statement for MCT at Camp Geiger, NC:

Our mission here at Marine Combat Training Battalion is to conduct entry-level common combat skills training at SOI - East for designated Marines while continuing to build a foundation of Marine culture required for assimilation into the Operating Forces in order to facilitate future mission accomplishment and survival in combat.

Every Marine receives basic combat training. While it's far more than the average soldier receives, the 28 days of MCT is not enough to qualify to be a trained infantryman.

After I attended MCT, I went onto SOI (School of Infantry) for 2 months. As I understand it today, Marines assigned to an Infantry MOS bypass MCT entirely and go through a 2 week basic skills course, then proceed directly to the school of their Infantry specialty.

Folk will often excel at what their employing organization rewards them for.

That's true. In the early days of the Corps a Rifle Expert got more money in his paycheck as incentive. When I was in a part of the cutting score for promotion was comprised of a Marine's rifle qualification.

Your friend obviously didn't go through basic in the 60s when FMJ is set. I went through basic in the Army in the 60s and the amount of physical abuse there depended on where you went for basic.

I went through Basic in 1990. I can tell you for a fact that physical abuse was alive and living quite well in my platoon. And if asked about a bruise or mark, "I fell down the stairs."

Back in the early part of the last century, the Army regularly outshot the Marines. The Marines decided that that wasn't acceptable and did something about it.

I'd debate the accuracy of that statement. In 1918 the Marines at Belleau Wood began engaging Germans at 800 yards, and connected. The marksmanship abilities displayed by the 5th and 6th Regiments that June were well documented. After the battle US Army General John Pershing declared, "The deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle!"

I don't recall how they did it in the movie but we actually did this blindfolded (M1 Garand).

Some years later I taught my Wife to quickly disassemble and reassemble the 1911A1 blindfolded.

We would do disassembly/reassembly races blindfolded on the M-60 and M2 BMG. Bored Marines on deployment . . .



Marines are riflemen, and it's a point of pride to be a good shot. Some individuals fall off the mark, that's the nature of life. But as an organization the Marines take great pride in being excellent marksmen, and do a better job than the other services at teaching riflery to all it's recruits. Marines set the bar high, and expect Marines to achieve a minimum basic standard or he doesn't graduate boot camp.

 

[ldyates]

Marksmanship is a skill. I trained, I practiced and I was Qualified Rifle Expert every year with the A2. Today, I still apply the same techniques when hunting and I have never had to fire more than one shot and have only had to track one animal.

PS... No way I could qual Expert today!!! Eyes are bad and I like my scope.

 

[Tinpig]

Marines are excellent riflemen.

Whitman and Oswald, however, both of whom were court-martialed while in the Marines, were gutless cowards who never saw combat and shot LEOs, medics, and defenseless civilians in cold blood. Don't believe any organization would be proud of their "marksmanship."

If I want a real rifleman by my side, I'll take Sergeant Alvin York, Company G, 328th Infantry Regiment, 82nd Infantry Division, United States Army, or Sergeant Audie Murphy, Company B, 1st Battalion, 15th Infantry Regiment, 3rd Infantry Division, United States Army.

But since they weren't mentioned in the movie Full Metal Jacket I guess they don't count.

Tinpig

 

[tju1973]

As a Marine 91-97 0331 (MG)/ and 8531 Primary Marksmanship instructor, the Etos that every Marine is a rifleman is nice to say, but not really true. I spent a good deal of time watching the non Grunts try to do grunt stuff--for example, we took cooks with us in Somalia to hump ammo, but they weren't grunts-- I worked at Edson Range and taught primarily recruits, but every 3rd or 4th week MCRD would send permanent personnel across our range and while many shot good, percentage wise comapred against infantry Marines, well there was no comparison. Finally, they required all Marines that were MCRD permanent personnel go through a 3 or 4 days CRT (combat readiness training) that was instructed by an armorer and I think a motor T guy..what a joke-- one sgt (I was a sgt too) told me if I didn't throw the dummy grenade like he told me to, he "wouldn't let me throw a real one.."--which I laughed-- I had just come back from the FMF and probably had thrown literally about 100 or so in Kuwait...Funny thing was that Range CO was primarily Grunts..but HQ CO was responsible for training us...

I guess to be fair, I was not a cook or a mechanic...and while all Marines shot on the same range course and all shot (at the time) M16a2s, not all MOS-es were equal when the day was done shooting wise...

Semper Fi.

PS us Grunts were a snobbyish group I was told... 8*)

 

[akodo]

how big is the target at 500 yards? Is it man-sized? I don't know if I could see a standard life-sized sillouette target at 500 yards (standard being one of those 'from the waste up' ones)

How many MOA does the front sight cover at 500 yards?


Or do you shoot at one of those 10 foot by 10 foot white boxes with a 5 foot diameter black bullseye?

 

[tju1973]

Your front sight post on an A2 is the exact width of the B Mod target at 500 yards...easy to get 50 points at that line....

The "bullseye" is roughly man sized..And I think the farme was something like 5'x5'-- but I may be wrong on the dimensions...its been 12 years since I got out..

 

[BullfrogKen]

^^^^^^

Ditto what he said.

I was good for at least 9 of 10 in the center at 500. 10 of 10 if I paid attention to the wind and did my job right. I figured as long as I didn't drop more than 27 points by the time I finished the last course of fire at 300 - the rapid fire, prone - I had Expert nailed.

The slow fire at 500 is nothing more than performing the fundamentals correctly. It's the steadiest position. It's all slow fire.

 

[HuntAndFish]

Oswald was a poor shot

Not true. His skill is a matter of public record. In court testimony it was indicated that he was above average Marine skill level.

My understanding is, Oswald failed to qualify with a rifle when he went through Boot Camp.

Again, not true. See above and also post #30 in this thread;

http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=487896&page=2

ETA: The man was a low down dirty dog, but he could shoot a rifle.