Why aren’t .45acp carbines more popular?

[MikeInOr]

I would really like to see a 10mm carbine in delayed blowback or piston system. I'd buy that for sure. 45acp, meh, not really enough case volume to maximize the potential.

I would too. The only problem with delayed blowback and piston systems are the expense. I love the roller delayed system on my HK 91 but I would have to shell out a lot of money for a similar PCC (Always wanted an MP5 or knock off... In 10mm WooHoo!). Shooting my M1 carbine back to back with my blowback PC charger is night and day different in shooting experience... not that the PC charger is in anyway harsh.

It seems like the extra pressure and volume of gas would make 10mm a better candidate for such a weapon than 9mm. 50 AE would make me even happier and I would stretch my budget further for one. Since I reload the expense of shooting less common cartridges isn't near that of buying ammo off the shelf. I.e. The expense difference 40 S&W vs 10mm is pretty low when reloading. Unfortunately to be successful a PCC carbine kind of needs to be affordable to shoot for the average guy that doesn't reload.

My one and only AR(ish) weapon is my Sig MCX Spear which I purchased an additional Sig Rattler upper in 300 AAC Blackout for. The ATF pistol brace B.S. gave me a free SBR registration. I spent a fortune (a fortune for me) on my Sig setup... but have way less invested in AR(ish) weapons than many.. who have an arsenal of lower end AR's.

A 10mm or 45 acp PCC would most likely have to be sub $1000 for me to bite.

 

[silicosys4]

I bought a TNW ASR in 10mm as a souvenir on my way through Montana a few years ago. I would have far preferred 9mm for the economy. I reload so cost of ammo isn't a huge deal, but a 9mm carbine will ring steel just as well as a .45 or 10mm will for about half the cost to reload, will hold more rounds, and will be more pleasant to shoot for an entire afternoon. Its a range toy and a 9mm fills the role better than a .45, and a .45 will fill the role better than a 10mm, which is why I picked up a conversion kit for .45...the conversion kit for 9mm exists but its almost as expensive as the entire gun originally was.

 

[d2wing]

Somewhat true. Fortunes have been made finding unfulfilled market niches and filling them.

I dont see anything like a PC charger in 45 acp or 10mm on the market. I.e. a short barreled semi auto that can take a foldable stock and be registered as a SBR for under $1000.

The buffer tubes ruins AR style PCC's for me. I like my PCC's to be as compact and lite as possible and able to shoot folded... i.e. Ruger PC Charger.

Another part of that is more people are interested in more modern cartridges. You may love the 45 ACP, but do enough people for a company to tool up for it. I don't know the answer. I am not a fan of pistol caliber rifles but I understand the attraction.

 

[Oninotaki]

As someone who is interested in keeping their calibers to a minimum, while expanding my platform options I find that a .45 acp PCC is of great interest to me. I only have one other pistol caliber (the .32 family) and no one is gonna make a PCC for those, and no the 30 Super Carry doesn't count until I can chamber it in a revolver to pair with the carbine.

Because of this I find myself looking into the topic every once and a while and I am most intrigued by the highpoint carbine with the high tower armory bullpup conversion kit.

That with some of the 20 rd capacity stick mags calls out to me. An OAL of 27.5" is unlike anything else on the market and sounds really slick.

HTA MBS 95 Bullpup for the Hi Point 4595 in .45 ACP

 

[mavracer]

 

[Ohen Cepel]

I have also been wondering why Ruger didn't put their PCC out in 45 (they did 40 though), nor did Henry.

I realize the advantages of 9mm but 45acp is usually in the top 3 pistol rounds, and has been for decades. So, lots of platforms out there in it.

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Glock has a large cap mag option, not as high as their 9mm, but pretty solid.

Sure there are some options out there, but not many. Has to be more demand for a 45 PCC than something like the 30 Super Carry or yet another straight walled hunting round..........

I have been looking for a while now for a simple 45 option which comes threaded from the factory. I may have to break down and buy a Hi-Point.

 

[BLACKHAWKNJ]

The Marlins have a steel receiver which I prefer and they have blowback actions, easier to machine. The 9MM's will take an S&W M59/M659 magazine, the 45 a 1911 magazine.

 

[CapnMac]

Always wanted an MP5 or knock off... In 10mm WooHoo!

HK ginned up the UMP (universal Machine Pistol) in theory to address the desires to have the MP-5 in more pistol calibers.
It's always been a bit of a "dog" (from a mix of nearly no market demand; being pug-ugly; and from managing to be not as good/slick/reliable as the MP-5)

the 30 Super Carry doesn't count

The high chamber pressure 30SC needs to get the round to mimic 9x19 performance, at handgun ranges, has always suggested that it's performance in longer barrels would be lackluster at best. This from being designed to get a full powder burn in 100-125mm of barrel. Which would be a lot of "coasting" in a US-legal 410mm barrel.

We in the "gun community" can be a fickle lot. The bolt mass and heavy spring wanted for a blowback pistol cartridge are not debilitating in a carbine in the way they would be with a handgun. It's an economical way for a manufacturer to build such a carbine, too. It's middling easy to figure out where the CG and balance points would be best fit for handling. Ought to be easy, right?

But then "we" all go "It dont have a locked breech, so it's junk!"

Then, we winge on about how "it doan take [my favorite] mags!" (Discounting entirely just how much engineering, tolerance, and study and expense must needs go into the simple machine that is a magazine.)

Ok, so the guys at [gun maker] do design a locked breech (or a semi-locked) carbine. Very first thing "the market" will screech about is that it's the wrong kind of breech--For Reasons!! (Or they will go "how cohm iz so dang 'spensive? I kint buy dat!")

That's a heck of a rock and hard place to try and make a buck doing. And, if a company can't make a buck doing something new, and is making a dime or two off the old stuff, why should they bother with the new at all?

 

[Phaedrus/69]

The simple answer for me is price. I used to have an HK USC and while it was a blast to shoot on the range it just got expensive real fast. In my area .45 ACP cost about 125% more than 9mm and both do the same job that I ask them to do (put holes in cans, splat steel or punch paper). I can shoot twice as much with my 9mm guns, so eventually I sold the USC (well, it also was hampered by 922r issues...). When it comes to "serious use" i.e. defense I'd rather have a rifle-caliber rifle than a pistol caliber rifle, especially when duty-type ammo for the 5.56 is actually cheaper than duty-type ammo in .45 ACP.

I also have attempted to consolidate down to the minimum amount of calibers just for logistics. Right now I stock and use 5.56, .300 Blackout, 9mm, .40 S&W, 12ga and .22 LR. I kind of hated to add the forty but I feel it's a better woods gun than the 9mm (I'm in SW Montana). Eventually I might add a .44 Mag just for woods use as the warming climate has resulted in bears not even hibernating some winters leading to encounters at times and placed that people never used to see 'em. The .45 ACP is an expensive round that does nothing for me that I can't do either better, cheaper or both with another round already in my inventory.

 

[Gun-Reck]

The .45 ACP, is, alas, a low pressure round.

It slows down in a longer barrel.

The .40 S&W and 9mm Para are both considerably higher pressure cartridges.

And the 10mm Auto and .357 Mag. even more so.

 

[zaitcev]

I have also been wondering why Ruger didn't put their PCC out in 45 (they did 40 though), nor did Henry.

Henry may yet offer .45 and 10mm versions. We don't know what's going on behind the scenes, especially regarding the sales. Ironically enough, the only thing that may make a big bore Hometeader real is for all the enthusiasts to buy the 9mm version (and then sell it once .45 becomes available). I'm quite certain that .45 gun will not happen if the 9mm gun fails to meet the sales targets.

Note that Henry's design permits .45 and 10mm variations on the same receiver, but Ruger's design does not. The bolt mass must be increased, but Ruger's bolt already has a tungsten weight. I doubt it can be made any heavier. But Henry's mass is in the handguard, ironically like the historic Ruger PC9 was made.

 

[Ohen Cepel]

Henry may yet offer .45 and 10mm versions. We don't know what's going on behind the scenes, especially regarding the sales. Ironically enough, the only thing that may make a big bore Hometeader real is for all the enthusiasts to buy the 9mm version (and then sell it once .45 becomes available). I'm quite certain that .45 gun will not happen if the 9mm gun fails to meet the sales targets.

Note that Henry's design permits .45 and 10mm variations on the same receiver, but Ruger's design does not. The bolt mass must be increased, but Ruger's bolt already has a tungsten weight. I doubt it can be made any heavier. But Henry's mass is in the handguard, ironically like the historic Ruger PC9 was made.

Good insight, thanks!

A Homesteader that takes a 45 Glock mag would be very interesting to me (and I hope others). A 1911 mag wouldn't be a deal breaker for me there either.

Didn't think about the bolt mass being a limitation on the Ruger design.

 

[conan32120]

Wth, now I want a .45 highpoint carbine

 

[12Bravo20]

Wth, now I want a .45 highpoint carbine

Hi Point carbines are definitely ugly and heavy but they function and are pretty accurate for what they are. I have had my 40S&W Hi Point Carbine since 2006 and it hasn't had any issues.

 

[mavracer]

I see the attraction, my issue with a 45 ACP PCC or for that matter a 9mm PCC is for about any purpose my 300 Blackout has better ballistics and since I reload it's not much more expensive and if I really want to shoot high volume cheap I'm happier shooting 22LR.
I've had a Hi Point 9mm and a 9mm PC Charger and ended up getting rid of both.

 

[CapnMac]

It slows down in a longer barrel.

Now, to be fair, "longer" in this context means 16"--'ideal' is around 12.5-13.75"--but NFA makes that complicated. The reduction at 16" is generally in the SD of ammo performance. Now, 18" and things are not improving at all.

 

[Phaedrus/69]

I see the attraction, my issue with a 45 ACP PCC or for that matter a 9mm PCC is for about any purpose my 300 Blackout has better ballistics and since I reload it's not much more expensive and if I really want to shoot high volume cheap I'm happier shooting 22LR.
I've had a Hi Point 9mm and a 9mm PC Charger and ended up getting rid of both.

If I ever get around to getting a stamp I'll do a short .300 Blackout. Should be a good house gun and a fun range piece.

 

[Ranger99]

The .45 ACP, is, alas, a low pressure round.

It slows down in a longer barrel.

What's a "longer" barrel ?

 

[hk940]

I did have a Marlin Camp .45 and the buffer did disintegrate over time, replaced it before I sold it off, I also had a Reising that I had to sell off because NJ banned them.
I replaced both with a TNW Areo carbine, removable barrel, takes Glock mags 13,round and 26 round. I paid under$600.00 when I got mine 5 years ago they are up to a little over $900.00 now.

 

[halfmoonclip]

Yinz boys who want the 10mm, to what purpose? Hunting in straightwall only hunting area? Hogs? Just for grits and shins?
Real PCC fan; like to own and shoot them. Started when I could reload for them more easily than any bottleneck; some, like the Storm, are short, even without a tax stamp. There may even be some wish for OEM bullpups, trying to overcome the 'brace' issue.
Yeah, rifle caliber carbines are more effective than PCCs, but, in some places, 'more' isn't 'better'. Too, a short 5.56 gives away velocity, which is the magic with those tiny bullets. (Let's not beat that particular rented mule; it's your choice.)
Wish HiPoint would hire an industrial designer; guns don't have to be ugly.
Moon

 

[Jim Watson]

Wish HiPoint would hire an industrial designer; guns don't have to be ugly.

Right. I remember way back when an honest gunzine writer said that of the Mossberg 800 with its stamped deer and reverse beveled foreend. Just because it was cheap did not mean it had to be ugly. The Remington 788 it was meant to compete with had a better style, if you could accept the stamped trigger guard like their .22s and the protuberant detachable magazine.

 

[hk940]

I solved the problem of stamped trigger guard. It needs to be reblued, it's over 40 years old!

 

[Jim Watson]

A left handed 788 with milled bottom metal, far out, dude.
What magazine internals? The factory clip guts up inside?

A friend went to considerable trouble to have a Mauser converted to .45 ACP. After the new wore off, he went back to his beloved .22s.

 

[Mosin Bubba]

If you design a 9mm carbine, you pretty much have your 40 model designed for free. The cartridges are extremely similar in dimensions. I imagine 45's when you have to start thinking about manufacturing wider receivers and such.

And for all the people in this thread who are now thinking about a Hi-Point 45 PCC... get one. They're fun.

 

[hk940]

A left handed 788 with milled bottom metal, far out, dude.
What magazine internals? The factory clip guts up inside?

A friend went to considerable trouble to have a Mauser converted to .45 ACP. After the new wore off, he went back to his beloved .22s.

I just covered the mag with a milled trigger guard/ floor plate used the factory mag. Semi finished stock by Bishop (long gone by now). A 16" lop because I am 6'9".