Why .45acp?

[highlander 5]

I believe the 9 mm and the 45 acp were created about the same time that being said the 45 auto is a low pressure round which does tend to make easier to shoot accurately. It is also extremely accurate be it out of a semi auto or revolver,I don't think a 9mm could match it in that dept.
I have several 1911s in 45 auto but my favorite go to gun is my S&W 625,it's like shooting a big 22.

 

[mjsdwash]

over the years, ive had two 45's that would hold 2" at 25 yards, and one that could do 2.5" consistently. That may not sound that good to the bragging people of the internet, but i have never seen a 9mm, or 40 come close to putting a 50 round box in a group close to that. Also, there the fact that a 45 is a big hole, and that goes a long way. that being said, i 45's were always range guns' and always carried 9mm's

 

[mjsdwash]

also, that 7/10 is in a circle so its more mass than size, with a standard 45 bullet weight being twice a standard 9mm. a 22 lr is only .8 smaller than a 300 winmag for example

 

[Plan2Live]

Do you really need a study to tell you that in real life more effective is better?

Without a study quantifying "effectiveness" then all you have is speculation and unfounded opinion.

I have a friend who works at a State law enforcement agency in their forensics department. He has attended a lot of autopsies and testifies he sees no difference in the level of dead acquired via smaller calibers vs larger calipers. His testimony is shot placement trumps caliber every time. Im comfortable carrying what I carry and don't need to convince anyone that my choice or theirs is better.

 

[Teachu2]

Without a study quantifying "effectiveness" then all you have is speculation and unfounded opinion.

I have a friend who works at a State law enforcement agency in their forensics department. He has attended a lot of autopsies and testifies he sees no difference in the level of dead acquired via smaller calibers vs larger calipers. His testimony is shot placement trumps caliber every time. Im comfortable carrying what I carry and don't need to convince anyone that my choice or theirs is better.

And the corpse who died from pneumonia is also equally dead. In a defensive role, how quickly that level of dead is achieved matters.

Years ago, .45acp had a real advantage over 9mm. Improvements in bullet construction have closed the performance gap, and many shooters are faster and/or more accurate with 9mm than .45acp.

 

[stchman]

I've been asking this same question for a while, but people still are enamored with 45. I have a lot of 45ACP handguns.

There are so many people that say "real calibers start with a 4". Whatever. I ask them is 45ACP is better than 357 Magnum, I just get a look.

 

[Plan2Live]

In a defensive role, how quickly that level of dead is achieved matters.

My forensics buddy and I have talked at length about the numerous crime scenes he has visited. He has yet to tell me about a bad guy stabbing, strangling or beating someone to death after being shot one or more times with a "lesser caliber". His testimony is that after the initial gunshot wound, most assailants are more interested in getting as far away from the thing that shot them than they are in attacking the thing that shot them or the person holding that thing. You have your occasional stories running counter to this opinion like the woman in Florida(?) that shot the guy following her and her kids into the crawl space 5 times before he broke off the attack but the more common outcome is either DRT or the wounded perp high tails it out of there and bleeds out some short distance later.

 

[buckhorn_cortez]

...but i have never seen a 9mm, or 40 come close to putting a 50 round box in a group close to that.

Then you need to hang out with a different crowd or try shooting accurate 9mm pistols.

If you're referencing something like a SIG, HK, or Glock in 9mm - you're right - they're not as accurate as a 1911 .45 ACP. That has to do with the gun, not the round. If you shoot a 9mm 1911, or a 9mm specifically made for target use - they're just as accurate as a .45.

I have an STI DVC 9mm and it is as accurate as any .45 ACP - and that's comparing it to a Les Baer HW Monolith with the 1.5-inch guarantee, two Wilsons, and a full custom 1911.

The 45 is great, lots of history, and practical attributes.

The 9mm Parabellum was introduced in 1902. I'm not sure that give the 45 ACP much of an edge with "lots of history" as a viable reason.

 

[Teachu2]

In today's world, I carry a 9mm much more often than a 45acp. With current ammo (Gold Dot Short Barrel, in my case) I feel the 9mm will deliver adequate performance if I place a shot appropriately. This was not the case in the past. I once saw a cop hit a fleeing suspect just above the kidney with a 9mm at about 25 yards. The bullet exited near the suspect's navel, and stayed inside his flannel shirt. The bullet looked like new - no visible deformation or expansion. I've also seen a suspect take 23 hits with 9mm bullets and continue to fight four cops. Both those instances were thirty years ago, but they motivated me to qualify with a 45acp.

 

[mavracer]

He has yet to tell me about a bad guy stabbing, strangling or beating someone to death after being shot one or more times with a "lesser caliber".

Well then it must have never happened lol.

Then you need to hang out with a different crowd or try shooting accurate 9mm pistols.

Yep find somebody with a Sig P210 or a Smith 952, heck my CZ Tac Sport pushes my Les Baer hard and cost a third less.

 

[kBob]

Because John Moses Browning thought it was a good idea. Actually John was doing fine with a .354 caliber (.38 ACP) until the US Army wanted a .45 so I am just teasing about that.

For me, because I am just more comfortable with .45 ACP than 9x19 mm, even if I have to give up some rounds in the magazine.......but that's just me.

Why do some folks by Rice Burners or even GM products when Ford offers the F-150?

Personal preference.

-kBob

 

[DaisyCutter]

Why 45 ACP?


Okay, below are MY answers:

I reload. The 45 ACP and 30-06 cartridges I reload for use the same shell holder, which is convenient. Handling 45 ACP cases is easier than 9mm, akin to Duplo vs Lego. The 45 ACP has a very generous safety margin for reloading, because it's not high pressure and by virtue of being bigger, a variation of 0.2 grains of powder is less critical in 45 ACP versus 9mm. Additionally, the 45 ACP still works well, hits effectively and cycles reliably even if I'm not loading for max velocity. Historically, savings were greater reloading 45 ACP versus 9mm.

Performance wise, old mountain men & cowboys killed everything big enough to die on this continent with 45 caliber lead projectiles. It's not ideal, ya, but I've never seen a sane person argue the 9mm is better than 45 ACP on any carnivorous wild animal.

Perhaps under ideal circumstances, with careful scientific method and advanced engineering, a 9mm can perform as well as 45 ACP. Fantastic. However, the 45 ACP is generally considered a superior performer to 9mm to some degree, either minimally or moderately.

The fact, and it is a fact, that you can stuff a lot more 9mms than 45 ACP into the magazine of a given handgun platform is a counter argument used in favor of 9mm. This becomes a personal decision. In a defensive shooting, would I rather have the first 8, 9 or 13, etc rounds be a little more effective, OR would I prefer a few more rounds of a lesser effective round? Personally, I'm more concerned with rounds 1,2, and 3 than I am rounds 15, 16, and 17. Each additional moment my attacker can continue his assault presents a significant danger to me. It's a crap shoot, but if I have to gamble then I'll gamble on the marginally better performing first few rounds before I gamble on needing rounds 17, 18 or 19 without a reload, and still being around to use rounds 17, 18, and 19 when I get that far in. At the close ranges most studies suggest deadly encounters occur at, if the 45 ACP can stop the aggressor one step sooner, then I'll bank on needing that more often than the 19th round in a mag.

I've googled it, and while various studies don't always agree in the average number of shots fired in a gun fight (2, 3, etc.), I've never seen a study where the average rounds fired in a defensive shooting exceeded the capacity of a traditional 1911 magazine.

If a platoon of ninjas bent on blood lust is still pressing the attack after you've dumped a half-dozen aimed rounds into the leaders, then you've got bigger problems than a double-stack mag can fix.

For the lighter weight 9mm vs 45 ACP argument, see above. The "load-out" required for a civilian self defense pistol isn't substantial enough to merit the weight of the cartridges a factor. If you're able-bodied enough to work the handgun, then you can carry enough rounds or 45 ACP to defend against any realistic threat.

Which brings us to the "follow-up shots" argument. The 9mms are faster to shoot because they recoil less. Well that's good, because if they are felt less by the sender than they are felt less by the recipient, so the 9mm shooter is more likely to need follow up shots.

Well, 9mm is still more accurate because the lower recoil causes me to flinch less. Well, that's a training issue, number one. Additionally, I can handload my 45 ACPs to shoot very soft. I can optimize them for exactly what I want.


So for me, based on my logic, needs, and abilities, I choose 45 ACP for my sidearms.


I use 9mm for ankle carry, which is where I think it really shines.

 

[vba]

FPE is not everything. I believe the momentum of a 230 gr bullet has much to do with the terminal ballistics of .45 acp. Here, velocity and weight are treated equally. I used to shoot bowling pins and steel plates where even .357 mag did not knock them down as a fast as .45.

Sometimes I would reload .45 Long Colt 255 grain bullets to get even more momentum.

 

[smitty22gunr]

I've recently added a Glock 19 to my modest collection. My other two Glocks are .45s, and I really love them. The G19 was bought for many of the reasons mentioned in the thread - capacity, ammo improvements, etc. I really like shooting it and would be completely comfortable using it as my SD piece.

I suppose the ultimate question could be: If you only had 1 shot to take, would it be with a .45 or a 9mm?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[DaisyCutter]

I have a friend who works at a State law enforcement agency in their forensics department. He has attended a lot of autopsies and testifies he sees no difference in the level of dead acquired via smaller calibers vs larger calipers.

I would concur. I go to autopsies, and investigate violent crimes. The problem with the logic above, is that all the samples were deceased, so it only includes the events where the bullet did it's job, not the times it didn't.

When counting only the dead ones, it's easy to conclude none are any deader than the rest.

How about the multitudes of times I responded to shootings where the victim was transported from the scene to a hospital, in stable condition, with a 9mm wound?

Admittedly, gang members in my jurisdiction overwhelmingly prefer to use 9mm, but they also almost never actually kill each other.

 

[DaisyCutter]

There are so many people that say "real calibers start with a 4". Whatever. I ask them is 45ACP is better than 357 Magnum, I just get a look.

Nobody ever thought to redirect with, " Is 357 Mag better than 44 Mag"?

 

[jmr40]

Primarily nostalgia and the mythology surrounding 45 ACP. If you look at the real facts neither the 45 nor 1911 pistol were particularly liked during WW-1 or WW-2 by the average soldier. The military conducted lots of tests in 1946 and determined 9mm was the better option. There was zero difference in effectiveness, but 9mm penetrated barriers better, cost less, had less recoil, and held more rounds.

During the 1950's and 60's a gun writer named Jeff Cooper wrote a lot of stuff with mostly made up statistics that a couple of generations of shooters accepted as gospel. Many people would rather believe the myth than the facts.

 

[BSA1]

For any meaningful conclusions scientific tests must be repeatable in a controlled environment such as a lab. That is a big reason ballestic gel is used so much. It is easy to make, easy to calibrate to a specific standard and very stable.

The human body is anything but stable and worse it can change rapidly. Emotions such as anger or drug use can result in a big change in the results of being shot.

There is a old saying that people choose the 45 acp for the caliber and 9mm for the different guns it is chambered in.

 

[badkarmamib]

Meet in the middle; .40 S&W. Problem solved

 

[DaisyCutter]

I suppose the ultimate question could be: If you only had 1 shot to take, would it be with a .45 or a 9mm?

That's a great way to pose the question. Defensively speaking, a person may only get 1 or 2 shots, or maybe none, in response to a threat. How frequently will the defender need 16 or 17 shots, and actually still be in the fight when that time comes. Maybe with liberal suppressive fire? Suppressive fire is very risky from a liability standpoint.

 

[mavracer]

The problem with the logic above, is that all the samples were deceased, so it only includes the events where the bullet did it's job, not the times it didn't.

That's really only a small problem, the biggest problem with looking at it at the autopsy perspective is they are already dead and have been for hours and you have absolutely no idea how they reactided to being shot.

Every ER will see a guy who walks in under his own power who dispite their efforts dies and the guy who's brought in unconscious who makes a full recovery.

 

[Nuclear]

Before the "wonder nine" guns started holding more rounds than a Browning Hi Power, and 9mm got so popular in this country for self and home defense, the bullet technology wasn't there to make 9mm as effective as a 45ACP (or 357 Magnum). Now, 30 some odd years later, 9mm is as effective as 45ACP. But as I guy I know says "you are going to run out of time in a gunfight before you run out of ammo" (he carries a revolver). 45ACP still has advantages, like if the JHP doesn't expand, for whatever reason, it's still a larger hole. If you are reloading, it is more tolerant of variances. If you are using it to shoot steel targets or pins, they go down easier with a heavier bullet. Standard ammo is subsonic if you are going to suppress your gun. I've pointed out to 300 Blackout fans that 45ACP will expand reliably at subsonic velocities with almost identical ballistics.

 

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

My full size carry gun is a Sig P220 in .45 ACP. I carry it mostly because I like the platform and the ergonomics of the gun plus I prefer shooting it because it's a .45 so I get the most trigger time with it. I don't feel any less armed with a 9mm of the same capacity since I know they are both very capable rounds and will do the job just fine.

 

[Teachu2]

Something else to consider is magazine capacity. Some states restrict that, and I live in one. 10+1 is civilian limit on new, so a G30 is the biggest carry gun I have. I'm about equal on accuracy with my G26, but it's a bunch faster.

 

[jcv]

I chose a .45acp Vaquero over a .45 lc for the sake of ammo availability and variety.