Why aren't you a cowboy action shooter?

[kayak-man]

Wild Bunch Action Shooting (WBAS): This is the newest sport under the SASS banner and is just now in its infancy. It's based off Sam Peckinpah's movie of the same name. (Remember the group of men who started SASS who call themselves The Wild Bunch. Guess what their favorite movie was. ) This is different from CAS in that it's a game for all you who hate mousephart loads. This is a big bore game. Required guns are Model 1897 pump shotgun, lever action rifle of .40 caliber or higher and a 1911 chambered in .45 ACP. Minimum power factor is 150. That's a 200 grain bullet @ 750 fps. That's a MINIMUM. Not what I'd call a mousephart. Lots of movement during the stages and lots of reactive targets.

Philly Slim, I would have been content to just shoot my AK and 870, maybe some 9mm and 45 when I can afford a 1911, then you had to go and post about this. Are you trying to get me to go broke

I assume that the 1911 has to be a GI model, or are beavertail grip safeties allowed? Are the rifles still limited to pistol callibers?

Chris "the Kayak-Man" Johnson

 

[ZeSpectre]

I was a SASS member for several years. I drifted away in part because I lost my "sidekick" and it was just less fun going to matches without him but there were other issues that finally made me stop going.

• Gamers who should have been playing IDPA or something (because they had FITS about the "scenarios" which I considered a vital part of SASS).
• Ever increasing arguments about the rules (Rather than just "cowboy up" and move on).
• "Big Britches" attitude from "on high". When prizes and money started getting involved it wasn't a game anymore.
• And eventually spending several hours on travel, working scenarios, and just plain waiting to eventually get in a total of roughly 7 minutes of shooting time also wore pretty thin at the end.
• Inconsiderate shooters who would show up late <to avoid setup> and/or vanish immediately <to avoid takedown>. The smartest coordinator I knew would hold scores "ransom" until after takedown/cleanup was finished. <evil grin>.

 

[David E]

The Wild Bunch matches do have some appeal, but mostly, it seems, they are part of a larger SASS match, not yet a stand alone in any real numbers.

Of course, I'd have to buy an 1897 Winchester pump shotgun, since, unlike SASS, they can load more than 2 rds at a time, making that the gun to have.

 

[SuperNaut]

Do the aliases have to be approved and registered, or is that another rumor like the cowboy hat requirement?

 

[royal barnes]

I have been a cowboy action shooter for 15 years and shot a number of other disciplines before deciding on this game as the one to stick with. Yes, it is fairly expensive to get started but my brother just paid more for his new bass boat than I have invested in my sport. I generally shoot three monthlies, at least one state match and a couple of regionals yearly to the tune of about 4000 black powder rounds. I have backup guns but my main match ones are Colts in .44-40, an original 1873 Winchester in .44-40, and an original 1887 Winchester lever action shotgun. No one has ever accused me of shooting wimp loads. The amount of money I have invested in clothing and gear sometimes makes me hyperventilate when I think on it. I am a SASS life member, Territorial Governor, and Rangemaster for our state match, Range Operations Instructor and spend several weekends each year at gunshows promoting the sport. I am immersed!

After reading this thread I will try to give my perspective on some of the reasons stated for not participating in the sport.
1. Costs too much to get started.
Yes, it does. I didn't get involved until my kids were grown and gone but show up at a CAS match and see how many guns are offered for you to try out.

2. I don't like to play dressup.
OK, but it's cowboy action shooting so you have to wear the minimum clothing as stated in the rules.

3. I don't want to come up with some silly name or stay in character for a match.
Aliases are required when you join SASS. They can be historical or whimsical. Your choice. Role playing is very rare and not required. I have shot with some people for years and I have no clue what their real name is. Doesn't change what I think of them.

Regardless of some things I have read, cowboy action shooters are some of the most friendly, helpful people you will ever encounter in any sport. Most shooters will never win big awards which, by the way, will never result in anything more than a buckle, trophy, or bragging rights. There are no cash prizes or new cars. The rule book has gotten bigger and more complicated but it's because newcomers are constantly trying to change the sport. What once went unstated now has to be spelled out.

Everything is not perfect in CAS. As in any other sport there are those who concentrate only on winning but they still must abide by the rules. Most of us are there for the friendship and low key competition. Something must be working. My badge number is in the 5000 range. New members badges are around 91,000. Complaints are that the average age is too high and that we need younger shooters. I believe this to be true but not at the expense of the game. Just a feeling from my side of the fence.

 

[SleazyRider]

Well said, sir.

 

[J-Bar]

You can shoot at monthly club matches without being a SASS member or even a club member without an alias. If you want to shoot in a state or regional or national level matches you must be a SASS member and declare a unique alias, which is checked for duplications before approval. I guess you could register your real name as your alias, but where's the fun in that? J-Bar was my grandfather's nickname, after the brand he used on his cattle.

 

[XxWINxX94]

It looks like a lot of fun, but I'm not sure I could afford it.
If walmart starts carrying 50 rounds of .45 Colt for $9.99 then I would start up instantly. Until then, or until I win the lottery, Not sure the ability is there.

I can also barely afford to buy alot of my regular ammo, let alone Cowboy rounds that are close to $1 a shot in some instances.

 

[Philly Slim]

Since I can't figure out how to quote yet I'll just say names.

kayak-man: There are two categories in Wild Bunch; Traditional and Modern. Traditional does require a G.I. model and is shot one handed. Only allowed mods are internal smoothing. Can't even have a full length guide rod.

Modern category allows a lot of mods including beaver-tail safeties and longer triggers. Sights can be changed but have to be fixed and no aiming dots. Modern can be shot two handed or one handed.

Yep, rifle has to be pistol caliber. The most common you'll see are '66s, '73s and Marlins in .45 Colt

David E: No, Wild Bunch maatches are stand alone. True, some clubs are trying to do them both together simply because they don't have enough participation in Wild Bunch yet but, that's really not the way it's supposed to be. I liken it to trying to hold a hockey game and a figure skating competion on the same ice at the same time. Yeah, they both are on ice and wear skates but, that's where the similarity ends.

SuperNaut: Yes, when you join SASS you choose your alias and it goes into the SASS records. It then belongs to you. Nobody else can use your alias until you're completely done with it. (Meaning you're dead )

 

[kiskicowboy]

Kayak-Man,
In reference to your question

"I assume that the 1911 has to be a GI model, or are beavertail grip safeties allowed? Are the rifles still limited to pistol callibers?"

From the Wild Bunch Action Shooting Handbook:

"1911 PISTOL REQUIREMENTS
Full size single stack steel frame 1911 style semi-auto pistol in .45 ACP caliber. No
more than one main match pistol may be carried to the firing line.

TRADITIONAL CATEGORY MODIFICATIONS
• Barrel length must be five inches. No barrel porting or compensators or other recoil
reducing devices allowed.
• Unloaded pistol weight may not exceed 40 ounces with an empty magazine inserted.
• Barrel with standard barrel bushing. No Bull barrels allowed.
• Magazine wells may be beveled, but may not be oversized, extended, or flared.
• Only non-adjustable “military style” rear sights and blade type front sights allowed.
• No sight inserts or colored sights allowed. Sights must be black or blued.
• Stainless steel is permitted. Stainless pistols may have stainless sights.
• Grips must be GI-style wood or plastic grips. Other natural materials are allowed but no
rubber grips. No target style or thumb rests allowed.
• Only rear slide checkering or serrations. No front slide checkering or serrations.
• Magazines must be standard length and cannot hold more than eight rounds. No extended
base pads on magazines.
• Only standard grip safeties. No beavertail style grip safeties.
• Standard length magazine release. May not be extended or oversized.
• Standard thumb safeties only. May not be extended.
• Standard slide release. May not be extended.
• Standard recoil spring and guide. No full-length guide rods allowed.
• Short or long solid trigger permitted. No match triggers allowed.
• Flat or arched mainspring housings permitted. Mainspring housing may be serrated or
checkered.
• Lowered and flared ejection port is allowed ONLY if factory original. Standard ejection
ports may not be modified.
• Checkered front strap or trigger guard not allowed.
• Standard spur type hammer only.
• Lanyard loop is optional.
• Internal accurizing and action tuning is allowed.
• Thumb and grip safeties must function correctly.
• Note: “Standard” in all cases means Standard Military Specs.

MODERN CATEGORY MODIFICATIONS
• Barrel length must be five inches. No barrel porting or compensators or other recoil
reducing devices allowed.
• Unloaded pistol weight may not exceed 42 ounces with an empty magazine inserted.
• Barrel with standard barrel bushing. No Bull barrels allowed.
• Magazine wells may be beveled, but may not be oversized, extended or flared.
• Adjustable or non-adjustable rear sights and blade type front sights are allowed.
• Sights may not be optical or fiber optic. Colored inserts or dots are permitted.
• Stainless steel is permitted.
• Grips must be wood, plastic or other natural materials. No target style grips or thumb rests
allowed. Wrap around grips that cover a portion of the front strap are illegal.
• Front and rear slide checkering or serrations allowed.
• No external “rib” allowed on top of slide. Original Colt Gold Cup ribs are legal.
• Extended beavertail grip safeties allowed.
• Magazines must be standard length and cannot hold more than eight rounds. No extended
base pads on magazines.
• Magazine release may be extended but not oversized.
• Thumb safeties may be extended and be ambidextrous.
• Slide release may be extended.
• Full-length recoil spring guide rod allowed.
• Lowered and flared ejection port allowed.
• Match trigger allowed.
• Lanyard loop is optional.
• Lightweight competition hammer allowed.
• Checkered front strap and trigger guard allowed.
• Flat or arched mainspring housing allowed. Mainspring housing may be serrated or
checkered.
• Internal accurizing and action tuning is allowed.
• Thumb and grip safeties must function correctly.

RIFLE REQUIREMENTS
Rifles or carbines used in the main and team matches must be original or replicas of lever
or slide action rifles manufactured during the period from approximately 1860 until 1899,
incorporating a tubular magazine and exposed hammer. Rifles with box magazines may not be used. Rifle must be chambered in a pistol caliber of .40 caliber or larger. (i.e. A SASS legal rifle
in .40 caliber or larger.) Rifles must comply with all SASS Main Match Firearm Covenants."

Hope this helps you out, and answers your questions.

 

[kayak-man]

Thanks guys. That helps alot. If theres ever a Wild Bunch match in my area, I'll definately go check it out. It sounds like a lot of fun, and like its a bit more run-and-gun than the normal CAS, which really apeals to me.

Once my shoulder has healed up, and I'm cleared to shoot the big guns again I'll go check out some of the local CAS matches.

Chris "the Kayak-Man" Johnson

 

[straitnate14]

I went once.... I was blown away at the total lack of shooting that I saw. I could have thrown bullets faster then about half of the guys there. I have no problem with people using light loads for shooting but when people stick bullets in the barrel on a regular basis I think it's a little silly. The senarios were fun and I shot a lot more than I do in a regular idpa match but I just felt like watching a bunch of guys throw bullets at steel was a little bit boring.

 

[kiskicowboy]

Almost forgot, for those of you interested in SASS Wild Bunch Action Shooting, here's the appropriate website:

http://www.sassnet.com/wildbunch/

 

[co_dave]

"stick bullets in the barrel on a regular basis"
In my three years in cowboy shooting I have never had a squib, not has anyone on my posse. I've heard of others in a match having them, but it is a rare occurrence. Squibs are more indicative of poor reloading and a likely under, or no powder situation than shooting reduced powder loads. Nobody should be shooting loads below the published minimum. Some may be, but they should not be.

I haven't chrono'd my SASS loads, but just based on loading data, my 130 gr RNFP 38s leave my pistols at somewhere around 940 FPS with a power factor of about 122. If someone can throw lead at steal accurately at that speed, more power to them.

Like I said before, the game isn't for everyone, if we all liked the same things the world would be a pretty boring place. I don't dispute that some have run into bad attitudes and other deterrents, but I can say from my experience, those are the exception, and not the rule.

Enjoy your shooting no matter what flavor it takes.
Dave

 

[SGW42]

I have a Single Six and 39A and I love "the old west." I was really upset when I heard about SASS, but then read the rules and found out I couldn't compete.

I don't get why there is no .22 LR competition. Someone said the steel targets are for centerfire and placed accordingly. Why not set up .22 LR stages? Just think about how many Henry leverguns and Heritage Rough Riders are out there. All those people could play.

I would actually even be willing to pony up a few bucks for a centerfire Vaquero. Why are there no stages for just one type of gun? Someone said the regulars wanted more, and that's fine, but if there were seperate games specific to single revolvers, or single rifles, I think more new people would come out and step into the multigun games. I know the point has been made that many club members are so nice and willing to loan out their guns, but maybe some people are like me and feel bad imposing no matter how generous
the host.

There are all these available classes and different sports, but all of them involve 4 centerfire arms. How about a rimfire sport? I don't even have any complaints about the costumes. I'd kill for an excuse to dress up like Clint Eastwood.

When I can bring my .22s, give me a call, I'll throw together a Blondie outfit as fast as I can and I'll be there ASAP.

 

[RugerBob]

I have been shooting cas for about 3 years. Its all about fun for me. I do not have tricked out guns. Some do and thats ok. My vaqueros are shooting about 800fps. Not max, but doable for me. I am not there to 'win'. Just having a good time shooting the types of guns I enjoy and doing it in a safe enviroment.
As far as clothes, well a pair of jeans and a button up long sleeve shirt and 20 dollar hat got me started.
Most people are nice, and some just stay to themselves and their curret friends.
Now that my wife wants to do this....well , more guns to buy!!

 

[oldfool]

wow, a lot of responses
me, like many others here -

too many rules, rules, rules
the dress up requirements go too far, protests from fans notwithstanding

just why should tennis shoes disqualify a shooter, or be considered to have anything whatever to with shooting skills in any shooting contest ??

total game emphasis (dress up day aside) is speed, speed, speed and speed only... it is not an accuracy game, given the target sizes and distances

I am not going to buy SA revolvers just for speed; for speed I will shoot DA, thank you
I don't wear boots and I don't want to
if I am going to shoot near zero recoil guns, make mine rimfire, please, at 3 cents a round
to wit, if they did do rimfire, they really would get a LOT more participants, as many have said
but the marketeers who push the game (and people who sell cowboy boots) see no profit in encouraging that

with all that said, it is great fun to watch, and I encourage everyone to enjoy any safe, responsible recreational shooting activity of their choice... in that respect, it's all good

but make mine without boots, fewer rules, rules, rules, and cheaper ammo please
(then I would bring along an old Hi-Std D-9 and shoot it SA only, and a Browning BL22, maybe a Ruger SingleSix, and even wear my cowboy hat... and I bet a bunch of other folks would too)
and move those targets downrange, while you are at it

short of all that, I can just put on my cowboy hat and shoot at old Grizz with my Wii zapper, and pretty quick, too
(the bear don't care if I am wearing cowboy boots or not)

 

[pockets]

I used to do the historic reenactment thing with flintlocks a few decades ago, so the costume/alias thing isn't foreign to me.
But the cost of buying two revolvers, a rifle, a shotgun, plus two types of ammo I currently do not buy...just to start in CASS. Even reproductions are not inexpensive. I'd honestly never use them for anything else.
I'd jump on an old-codger rimfire version though. I already have those and ammo is a whole lot more affordable than CASS-type centerfire.

From the Wild Bunch Action Shooting Handbook: "1911 PISTOL REQUIREMENTS - Full size single stack steel frame 1911 style semi-auto pistol in .45 ACP caliber.

Why aren't the Star Model B 9mm's used as "1911" blank shooters in the movie included?

 

[tallpaul]

Well you asked....


I loved it the few times I tried. I bought a Ruger Bisely in 44 mag,a winchester trapper in 44 and a SXS just to get into the game... by the time I got the guns the local matches started to require two pistols and it pissed me off enough that I quit playing. I have two many guns as it is and just got miffed that I needed two pistols after I got the supposed basics.

Heck I even have a sHILOH #1 that would be great for the side matches etc.

It was just a principle thing on my part. The game itself is a lot of fun!

Also the fees and the membership crap is a bit much for my tastes. I already have several other "membership" type hobbies and I am not unlimited in my funds.

Well ya asked....

 

[Deanimator]

So, are you saying the SASS shooters are wrong for requiring period clothing, or the bolt action people are wrong for not requiring it? Or are you saying that all shooting sports should be required to be in lock-step with each other?

Apples and oranges, anyone?

I'm saying that period guns != period costume.

Neither a #1MkIII Enfield nor a Cimarron SAA require a particular costume to function safely and accurately.

If you WANT to play dress up, that's fine by me.

I don't, and that's why I won't be shooting CAS.

It's as simple as that.

 

[Philly Slim]

pockets: "Why aren't the Star Model B 9mm's used as "1911" blank shooters in the movie included?"

Wild Bunch Action Shooting has it's roots in the movie The Wild Bunch. Since the only semi-auto handgun represented in that movie was a Colt 1911 in .45 ACP, that's the pistol requirement in WBAS. As I stated earlier, WBAS is a big bore sport for those that enjoy full power loads. 9mm need not apply.

P.S. Just for clarification, the 1911 doesn't have to be a Colt. Any brand of 1911 is fine as long as it meets the basic requirements laid out in the rules.

 

[Philly Slim]

I forgot to respond to this earlier. A few folks have objected to the "no adjustable sights" rule. Problem is, there is no such rule. There used to be separate categories for fixed and adjustable sighted pistols but, they've since been merged. We have quite a few folks who compete with adjustable sighted Ruger Blackhawks.

Here are the rules concerning adjustable sights on pistols:

REVOLVER – ADJUSTABLE SIGHT MODELS
• Adjustable sight revolvers may have dovetailed or adjustable rear sights and/or dovetailed front sights.
• The rear of adjustable sight revolver front sights may be reshaped (such as rounded).
• Ramp style front sights are allowed if original to the firearm.
• Beaded post front sights or inserts are not allowed.
• Adjustable sight revolver REAR sights may be replaced with commonly available sights of the same size and type. Modern replacement target sights such as the Bomar and Millett type sights are not allowed.
• Rear sights may utilize an insert of the same color as the rear sight to allow easy sight adjustment.
• Adjustable sight revolver FRONT sights may not be undercut.

 

[shooting time]

I thought about it but I like riding a horse and shooting off it at the same time.So I do cowboy mounted shooting which gives me a intense adrenalin rush. you have to use 2 single action revolvers and ride thru a course as fast as you can and bust all the balloons in the shortest time.and we have to dress for the period also and also shoot rifle off the horse.

 

[tarosean]

I thought about it but I like riding a horse and shooting off it at the same time.So I do cowboy mounted shooting which gives me a intense adrenalin rush. you have to use 2 single action revolvers and ride thru a course as fast as you can and bust all the balloons in the shortest time.and we have to dress for the period also and also shoot rifle off the horse

When I think of the term cowboy shooter this is exactly what I envision....

Did you have to debomb/train your own horse? I would imagine finding a horse that is acceptable to gun fire is quite hard now-a-days.

Ive got 3 horses and the only one who isnt bothered by gun fire is my daughters pony.... (lot of good that does me. LOL ) I posted way back in this thread what would happen if I attempted to shoot of one of mine.

Anyhow. I might have to look up any local matches and check them out... I am a country boy Texan so the guns and the dress are not a problem.. Wont call it a costume since that is my everyday wear when not at the office.

 

[bayhawk2]

I have to respond on the re-coil speed thing.I shoot .45's.That leaves me out
of the 1'st place trophy.So what fun is it if you are out of the running
before you even start?The little .32's with low velocity loads?What's that
all about?I agree that I've seen more re-coil from a .22 L.R. than
from some of those pistols in SASS.
With that negative,there are several positives.The comroderie.No doubt
it is a fun event as far as friendship and getting out of the house.
As far as dressing the part and the names?Well I used to hear some
pretty funky names on the C.B. radio I had in my truck.I was into that.
They also have those duelist matches.One hand.Left first,then right.I saw
some decent re-coil in those matches.Gaming is in every sport.If there is
a way to bend the rules to win?Someone will.
"Sorry but I won't embarrass my pistols with those loads."
P.S.-This is not to say I won't join someday.From what I understand,
they have a "duelist over 60 years old"match.That sounds
interesting.