Why can't people place their shots?

[pax]

Any way, it's just far more complicated than simply pulling a trigger and keeping the sights lined up. *shrug*

Well, yes.

But if you* can't even do that much, what makes you think you'll be able to do all the other more complicated more difficult stuff when your life is in danger?

It all starts with good marksmanship.

pax

* Note: that's a generic "you," not a personal "you."

 

[fastbolt]

Why can't people place their shots?

Why can't people not do stupid things?

Why can't people not infringe on the religious and/or spiritual beliefs of others, or the lack thereof?

Why can't people use common sense?

Many of life's simple questions often go without answers ...

 

[Cosmoline]

Interesting, I practice very similarly at the range with my SP-101 without use of the sights. What type of ammo do you use with this drill?

~Ichiro

I prefer the mid-weight magnums. Fiocchi makes some 142 grain truncated cone that kicks the same as 158 grains and runs very clean. They're about a buck or two more than the .38 special bricks. I find if I shoot too much .38 Special the gunk starts to build up slowing down the loading of magnums.

 

[Fat_46]

An interesting excercise to try is the following:
Find your target heart rate for cardio excercising. Do jumping jacks at the range until you get the heart rate at the target. Now, SAFELY draw and fire 5 rounds (even for those of you with hi-cap mags) at a target 7.5 yards away.

MOST people will see a dramatic (and bad) change in their accuracy...and thats just with a fast heart and respiration rate, with no adrenaline in your system.

Results poorer than acceptable? Practice this drill until you feel comfortable with your accuraccy...then move the target back and start over again.

YMMV...good luck

 

[280PLUS]

Tueller drills

I've done a few of those. I understand they are more related to someone running at you with a knife, club or any other hand held weapon you like. Not a firearm. We have a runner at the firing line facing backward. The idea is to draw and fire accurately before he (or she) can run a measured out 21 feet the other way. It is VERY hard to beat the runner and takes practice. Even so those that do beat the runner only do so by a split second or so. By this time the runner is pretty much in your face and IMHO even if you DO manage to shoot him his momentum will carry him forward into you. Personally, if someone was running at me, I hope I'd be thinking clearly enough to sidestep as I'm trying to get some shots off. Let them commit to your present location and then quickly change that location at the last possible second. If you're real smart you try to trip them as they pass by. Of course you NEVER know how smart you're going to be until you are in such a situation. It's ok to have a plan though.

Here's a suggestion. Take some form of martial art where contact is allowed. It will teach you how to keep your cool when under attack. Boxing is best IMHO. Of course learning to pick your feet up doesn't hurt either. (read using them to fight not run)

 

[Ankeny]

gunfan, that has to be one of the most naive posts on self defense shooting that I have ever read.

How do I get the Pepsi off of my keyboard before the keys stick?

 

[HSMITH]

I just hope to the All Powerful that it isn't a reasonably skilled competitive action pistol shooter that decides I am the problem. There are some guys out there that really know how to shoot, and we can thank God himself that they are on our side.


Most people, gun people or not, can't shoot worth beans. There is that odd duck out there that will ventilate the average guy well before he knows anyone is shooting him.

 

[280PLUS]

There are some guys out there that really know how to shoot

Yes there are! Unfortunately you can't be so sure they're all on our side.

Just a couple more things on the Tuellers. There is no time to put both hands on the gun and aim. The shots have to come one handed from retention or the hip to be in time. When first practicing accuracy comes first. Once you get the accuracy down, THE SPEED WILL COME!! I've had that hollered in my ear a few times now, I thought I'd give you guys a turn...

The target for our Tuellers is set up at point blank btw because apparently that's where your target will be when you start shooting.

 

[TexasRifleman]

The target for our Tuellers is set up at point blank btw because apparently that's where your target will be when you start shooting.

Have you ever had someone demonstrate it? Reading it is one thing, but seeing someone close on your position that fast is eye opening, and scary.

If they start at 21 feet and attack, point blank is exactly where they will be by the time you react. It truly shook me up when it was demonstated to me.

Now the thinkers that be on this stuff are suggesting that even 21feet is too close. Some are saying now maybe even 30 feet is not outside reasonable
thinking.

Everyone should understand the Tueller thing in case you're in court for a self defense shooting. If you shoot someone 20 feet away, the DA will go crazy on you, but Tueller has been used so many times that it can be the difference in making your self defense argument or not. Oh, and you need to be able to prove that you know the details of the Teuller drill ahead of time, not learned after the fact.

The legal people recommend that you write up all of the self defense facts that you are aware of, seal that in an envelope and mail it to yourself.
Keep this unopened, postmarked envelope in a safe. With that you can prove in court that you were aware of the self defense laws, especially Tueller, ahead of time.

If you ever take the LFI courses, they have you seal all your class notes in an envelope and mail it to you for just that purpose.

Be safe.

 

[280PLUS]

Have you ever had someone demonstrate it? Reading it is one thing, but seeing someone close on your position that fast is eye opening, and scary.

I don't recall us doing that. Just not being able to draw and fire fast enough to beat the runner was eye opening and scary for me. Best I can do is a tie and that's on a good day, sometimes I'm a full second or so behind but it's usually because I'm fumbling with the safety on my Hi Power . Not nearly good enough but I'm getting better. That's when I started thinking about sidestepping, cause a gun ain't gonna work. 30 ft does not seem unreasonable to me. We should try that next time we practice.

The legal people recommend that you write up all of the self defense facts that you are aware of, seal that in an envelope and mail it to yourself.
Keep this unopened, postmarked envelope in a safe. With that you can prove in court that you were aware of the self defense laws, especially Tueller, ahead of time.

Mighty good advice, thanks! Having it notarized might not be a bad idea either.

 

[f4t9r]

I like to think Im ready for a gun fight and talk big , but really I would be happy to say I have never been in one and would like to keep it that way!

 

[Ankeny]

There is no time to put both hands on the gun and aim. The shots have to come one handed from retention or the hip to be in time.

Doesn't that kind of depend on the shooter's ability level and the conditions set forth? On a square range, in a controlled environment, open carry with something like a Blade Tech, there are a lot of folks who are pretty speedy. In the real world, better have some hand and/or feet combatives in combination with movemen,t and the shot will probably be at contact distance.

I like to think Im ready for a gun fight and talk big , but really I would be happy to say I have never been in one and would like to keep it that way!

Me too!

 

[Jamie C.]

Well, yes.

But if you* can't even do that much, what makes you think you'll be able to do all the other more complicated more difficult stuff when your life is in danger?

It all starts with good marksmanship.

pax

* Note: that's a generic "you," not a personal "you."

I think you missed my point... Or maybe I just didn't present it very well.

I know people that can out-shoot me without even working at it, out on the range. But when they get put in a stressful situation, they simply can't keep their composure well enough to hit anything. Because of the "adrenaline dump", and how they physically react to it, they literally don't have the muscle control to do what needs doing. So all the hours they put in practicing are really of no use to 'em at all.

( Anybody know somebody that's a good shot, but particularly susceptible to "Buck Fever"? How do you think they'd fare in a life or death situation, with an armed attacker? )

So, where shooting practice may be important, in some respects it's meaningless. And I'd much rather have to deal with a person that shoots a lot, but falls apart under stress than I had someone who isn't so good with a gun, but is cool-headed enough to calmly keep trying until they hit what they're shooting at.


J.C.

 

[obviousman]

When going in harm's way, do as I do, just wear a 12 gauge (legal 18"bbl, 27" overall) on a support sling under a duster. I can deploy it real fast, don't need to aim much and with 00 buck is a real "One-shot stop" out to 30, 40 yards.

 

[pcf]

So, where shooting practice may be important, in some respects it's meaningless. And I'd much rather have to deal with a person that shoots a lot, but falls apart under stress than I had someone who isn't so good with a gun, but is cool-headed enough to calmly keep trying until they hit what they're shooting at.

Taking this slightly out of context.....
I still get the "jitters" when I hunt, get them just as bad as when i was seven. I have friend that refuses to practice shooting trap or skeet before hunting season. "Clay targets ain't nothing like ducks." He doesn't get the "jitters", five years ago I missed alot more than he did. Now, I hunt with Hevishot and don't feel like I'm wasting money (and miss a LOT less than he does). Am I perfect, NO. Good, NO. But my skills have improved, practice and confidence in my ability to shoot has made shooting "under pressure" much easier.

A cool head will not gain one magical skills under pressure, it only means they have a cool head. Not having a cool head means one's skills detoriate under pressure. (Or so we are told) I know what I'll chose, given the choice between inability and detoriated ability.

 

[Cosmoline]

Obviously you can't go around practicing on real people! So other than making the range experience fast and somewhat stressful, what can you do? My suggestion would be small game hunting with your carry piece. If you can nail a squirrel bunny running on the ground with your CCW handgun, hitting a target 100 times larger should not pose any difficulty. Plus, the three dimensions of the hunting experience and the random nature of small game encounters mirror real life. Though of course most squirrels aren't shooting at you

 

[gunfan]

Imho...

"It all starts with good marksmanship."

The prosecution... rests!

Scott

 

[Gordon Fink]

ometimes I’m a full second or so behind but it’s usually because I’m fumbling with the safety on my Hi Power.…

Very interesting. I wonder if this issue has been studied in any controlled way.…

~G. Fink

 

[Jamie C.]

....A cool head will not gain one magical skills under pressure...

This is quite true. However, many times it doesn't take much more than a simple or basic action to survive a lethal confrontation.

Think about it.... how much "magical skill" does it really take to hit a man-sized target at 6 feet or less, especially if you have 15 "tries" in the gun? Yet many times, "trained" people empty their guns and don't hit anything, at this kind of distance. ( I've seen at least a few videos of this happening. )

Then there's the accounts of the little old lady who center-punches the burglar/rapist with her dead husband's old .38 that hasn't been fired in 20 years....

Sorry, but to me, stuff like that just proves that what's going on between your ears at the time is far more important than how many hours you've spent practicing at the range. Sure, you may have built up the "muscle memory" to do the job, but if psychological or physiological reactions cancel those out, then they might as well never have been there at all.


J.C.

 

[280PLUS]

Very interesting. I wonder if this issue has been studied in any controlled way.…

~G. Fink

How do you mean?

Then: FYI When I say "keep a cool head" I mean don't panic. Just go about your business as you normally would. If you've practiced reflex will take over.

Quote:
There is no time to put both hands on the gun and aim. The shots have to come one handed from retention or the hip to be in time.


Doesn't that kind of depend on the shooter's ability level and the conditions set forth?

It has been my experience, which is minimal, that if you take the time from concealed carry to place both hands on the gun, extend it forward and take aim most people will NOT beat the runner. The main problem I was having, and may still have, is firing from retention. I was (or still am) too used to both hands, extend, aim and fire and that's what I do reflexively. I've had to retrain to fire one handed from retention.

 

[pax]

Jamie ~

I follow you now ... but I still disagree.

Good shooters sometimes fall apart and shoot badly under stress.

But a bad shooter doesn't suddenly learn how to shoot, just because someone's shooting at him.

As I said before, there are lots of ways to lose a gunfight. You could be a poor shot, unable to hit the target under even optimal circumstances. You could be a good shot, but slow. You could be a fast, good shot, but get stressed out and shoot wildly. You could stand there and not move. You could move but be unable to shoot while moving. You could think concealment was cover and get shot right through your hiding spot. You could ...

Well, you could do a lot of things to get yourself killed. But not one of those things is improved by being a poor shooter to begin with. It has to start with marksmanship.

pax

I've interviewed a lot of people after gunfights, both police and private citizens. Not one has ever said to me, "You know, I wish I hadn't shot quite so well." -- Tom Givens

 

[pcf]

Think about it.... how much "magical skill" does it really take to hit a man-sized target at 6 feet or less, especially if you have 15 "tries" in the gun? Yet many times, "trained" people empty their guns and don't hit anything, at this kind of distance. ( I've seen at least a few videos of this happening. )

Been to an shooting range lately? For many it's easier to hit the ceiling than the target. If one can't hit a target to begin with, who cares how well they do under pressure.

Sorry, but to me, stuff like that just proves that what's going on between your ears at the time is far more important than how many hours you've spent practicing at the range. Sure, you may have built up the "muscle memory" to do the job, but if psychological or physiological reactions cancel those out, then they might as well never have been there at all.

Couldn't agree with you more, apologies for being unclear earlier. Mindset far outways training or equipment. However, your implication that training can be pointless because proper mindset will be the overriding factor is fallacious.

Soldiers and Marines train constantly to deal with a variety of situations and problems faced on the battlefield. Mindset becomes a product of training. One can be cool as a cucumber but when faced with bracketing mortars, does he know to find cover and move perpendicular to incoming rounds?

One is quite meaningless without the other.

 

[Gordon Fink]

How do you mean?

I’m thinking of an experiment, like the drill you described, but comparing shooters using manual safeties to those who aren’t. Under stress, which group of shooters will perform better, if there is any difference at all. This would assume equal levels of training and familiarity with the chosen handgun for each shooter, of course.

I don’t know if a formal test of this kind has ever been done.

~G. Fink

 

[Jamie C.]

Jamie ~

I follow you now ... but I still disagree.

Good shooters sometimes fall apart and shoot badly under stress.

But a bad shooter doesn't suddenly learn how to shoot, just because someone's shooting at him.

As I said before, there are lots of ways to lose a gunfight. You could be a poor shot, unable to hit the target under even optimal circumstances. You could be a good shot, but slow. You could be a fast, good shot, but get stressed out and shoot wildly. You could stand there and not move. You could move but be unable to shoot while moving. You could think concealment was cover and get shot right through your hiding spot. You could ...

Well, you could do a lot of things to get yourself killed. But not one of those things is improved by being a poor shooter to begin with. It has to start with marksmanship.

pax

I've interviewed a lot of people after gunfights, both police and private citizens. Not one has ever said to me, "You know, I wish I hadn't shot quite so well." -- Tom Givens

Pax... tell me how you're really disagreeing with what I said initially, concerning people not being able to "place their shots"?

I never said a cool head and a calm hand gained any specific skill. I simply pointed out that there's more to staying alive in a shoot-out than being able to punch the bull's eye at will.

I do maintain that a being able to "keep your head" may allow one to use any natural aptitude that may exist...or even plain common sense, if no other specific training has been had. It also will probably give "Lady Luck" a bit of a helping hand. In other words, thinking straight may allow you to figure out how to stay alive, even though you haven't been trained to do so, or have absolutely no previous experience with the situation that you find yourself in.

On the other hand, I've known more than one police officer that "forgot his training", and couldn't even manage to get his gun out of the holster, when it counted. Also been involved in more than one court case where "He/she just panicked" was the excuse for any number of behaviors that were contradictory to training or other learned behaviors. )

Make any more sense?

J.C.

 

[Jamie C.]

Been to an shooting range lately? For many it's easier to hit the ceiling than the target. If one can't hit a target to begin with, who cares how well they do under pressure.

5 will get you 10 that most of these people don't take what they're doing seriously, and have deluded themselves into believing that either 1) They'll suddenly shoot better if they need to, or 2) Don't think they'll ever need the skill. These are exactly the kind of people that "lose it" when TSHTF.

Couldn't agree with you more, apologies for being unclear earlier. Mindset far outways training or equipment. However, your implication that training can be pointless because proper mindset will be the overriding factor is fallacious.

See my post to Pax, up above. Ever see a veteran police officer hopping around in a circle, trying to get his gun out of it's holster, when he really needed to be drawing and shooting? I have.
Sorry, but training can instill the proper mind-set, but that doesn't mean that it always will. If it did, nobody would ever "wash out" of the police academy or boot camp.

Soldiers and Marines train constantly to deal with a variety of situations and problems faced on the battlefield. Mindset becomes a product of training. One can be cool as a cucumber but when faced with bracketing mortars, does he know to find cover and move perpendicular to incoming rounds?

A green recruit "locking up" the first time he's subject to live fire or real combat is nothing new.

One is quite meaningless without the other.

I wouldn't say "meaningless". Although both can be greatly hampered by a lack of the other, I still think the "cool head" is more valuable, since it's much harder to teach.


J.C.