Why can't people place their shots?

[ThreadKiller]

Isn't one of the best ways to get to the "cool head" state is to practice and practice and practice good techniques and in the hopes it will yield confidence? (and not just accuracy drills) The knowledge that you are proficient in the use of the weapon has to have at least some calming effect IMHO.

I know when I get out on the trap field my scores are generally better when I have confidence in my shooting (and that only comes with lotsa practice). It's not the same kind of stress as incoming fire to be sure, but take on the last 5 clays when you've got a 100 straight going!

Confidence in your ability goes a long ways to control the "yips."

Tim

 

[Jamie C.]

Isn't one of the best ways to get to the "cool head" state is to practice and practice and practice good techniques and in the hopes it will yield confidence?

Pfc got close to the truth when he mentioned the Marines....

I'm not convinced you can teach a person to be calm and cool-headed... But you can condition them to it, in most cases, I think. Simply put, you place them under stress. A little at first, increasing the level as they go, until you reach the level that they'll be expected to function under. Then you go a bit past that, and see what happens. ( Some people have a higher tolerance to stress, naturally, than others, and respond to whatever they need to without prior conditioning. )

Military training has several purposes. One is to teach you to do the things that'll be required of you. The second is to condition you to doing those things under extreme stress.

The third purpose is to "weed out" those that simply can't deal with it, and fold under pressure.

LEO training does much the same, but not to the extreme that military training does, in my opinion. ( Yes, I've been through both. )



J.C.

 

[280PLUS]

Interesting idea Gordon...

All I know is it made me start thinking real hard about a DA auto vs single action. Then I discovered most of he problem was my thumb going outside the holster and not finding the safety right away. Once I made a few adjustments to the holster the problem all but disappeared. I take the safety off now without a second thought but I still see it as a potential trouble spot when under duress. I think I'll suggest some Tueller drills tomorrow when we get together for practice. BTW I normally carry a lightweight S&W J frame in .32 Mag, I use the High Power for practice because the ammo is much cheaper. Lately we have taken to practicing with both auto and revolver too which isn't a bad idea.

As far as operating under stress. I think one of the things that helped me learn to keep my cool under pressure was Navy damage control school. Learning how to shore up a bulkhead or blank off a flange while the ice cold water is rushing in all over you and filling your space is a great way to learn to stay calm and continue to function. Too bad you all can't go through it.

 

[isp2605]

I think I'll suggest some Tueller drills tomorrow when we get together for practice.

To make the Tueller Drill more stressful, and somewhat more realistic -
Give the attacker a club of sorts, something like foam wrapped 1" PVC. While the attacker is charging with the PVC they are to be screaming at the top of their lungs. If you can drop the hammer before the attacker gets to you then the attacker has to stop his attack. If you can't create distance, draw, and drop the hammer then the attacker pops you a good one with the PVC. Just having someone run at you doesn't create enough stress. You have to add something to the scenario where you have something to lose, in this case, a whop with PVC. Adding the running full tilt, screaming and the real threat of a knot on your noggin will cause many to fumble the draw and drop their guns. We've been using that training tactic for many years. It's definitely not the same as someone really charging you with a knife but it does put more stress to the situation.
Also remember the Tueller Drill does not indicate that you can stop an attack in 21 ft. All the Tueller Drill does is demonstrate that someone can cover that distance and attack you, and if you are quick enough you might be able to get off 1 shot before they're on you. Also remember, that just because you hit them with a shot it does not mean they are incapacitated. Unless you just get lucky enough to hit the brain or cut the spine they'll still be able to carry thru with their attack. With Tueller situations create distance and get off line.

 

[280PLUS]

Also remember the Tueller Drill does not indicate that you can stop an attack in 21 ft. All the Tueller Drill does is demonstrate that someone can cover that distance and attack you, and if you are quick enough you might be able to get off 1 shot before they're on you. Also remember, that just because you hit them with a shot it does not mean they are incapacitated. Unless you just get lucky enough to hit the brain or cut the spine they'll still be able to carry thru with their attack. With Tueller situations create distance and get off line.

All duly noted, I think the main thing the Tuellers demonstrate is how difficult or nearly impossible it is to stop someone who charges you from within 21 feet. 15 ft? Forget about it, you'll never pull it off.


We don't have anyone actually charging us, they are running the opposite direction away from the line of fire to a pre-measured spot 21 feet away. We are using live ammo. I assume you are talking about a dry fire exercise?

An afterthought...

Story: What we do is station a person down 21 ft behind the line of fire. The runner claps the outstretched hand of that person as they blow by the 21 ft line and the shooter can hear the clap and get an idea how far ahead or how far behind they are. Well, one day I'm the outstretched hand and the runner is about the size of a large gorilla. Big young strapping kid. He smacked my hand SO HARD I thought it was comin' off!! I pretended it didn't hurt. Now you want me to put a piece of pipe in his hand and let him whack me on the head with it?

I KNOW I'm gonna get a rap on the noggin'. Why would I want to do that?

 

[isp2605]

All duly noted, I think the main thing the Tuellers demonstrate is how difficult or nearly impossible it is to stop someone who charges you from within 21 feet. 15 ft? Forget about it, you'll never pull it off.

Point is it doesn't show how difficult it is to stop someone. It shows only how difficult it is to get a shot off in that distance. You most likely won't stop them even if you do get a shot off and hit them. They're on you so close by the time you get the shot off that they can still inflict major damage even after being hit. They won't be immediately incapacitated.

 

[Cosmoline]

It's entirely possible to get off one or more shots before the runner gets to 21 feet. It just takes practice, practice and more practice plus a fine-tuning of your carry technique. Munden can fire six shots before I can blink.

 

[isp2605]

It's entirely possible to get off one or more shots before the runner gets to 21 feet. It just takes practice, practice and more practice plus a fine-tuning of your carry technique. Munden can fire six shots before I can blink.

Don't doubt that Munden can. Bill Jordan probably could too. How many on here can come close to either of those?
I'm well aware of the Tueller Drill. We've been doing it for over 25 yrs. Seen it done several thousand times a year with a wide variety of people. A lot of people can get off a shot. Do with the stress inducer as I described earlier and watch the shot ratios go down.

 

[Cosmoline]

Of course, what other solution is there besides more and more practice?

Tactically, the limitations of the handgun as a personal defense weapon are a good reason to have one of these things with you when you're out walking in dark places.

 

[280PLUS]

Do with the stress inducer as I described earlier and watch the shot ratios go down.

I ran the scenario by the RSO's at practice today. They are not comfortable with anyone dry firing AT anyone else. I'd still like to try it, maybe with a toy gun? Or one of those Hollywood prop guns...

I don't doubt there are people out there who could get the shots off. I've seen it happen. I just feel that even if they did the attacker would be so close and at such speed by that time that they would carry on through the shots. That's why I get the impression it is "nearly impossible" to stop a determined attacker from getting to you if they are at 21 ft or closer. Excepting the earlier mentioned brain or spinal cord shot.

There weren't enough there today to do any Tuellers. We did some other good stuff though! I was lucky again, I had the Marine and the SEAL all to myself today. Very productive for me when that happens.



Cosmo, what did you do to that nice doggie to make him so mad?

 

[isp2605]

I ran the scenario by the RSO's at practice today. They are not comfortable with anyone dry firing AT anyone else. I'd still like to try it, maybe with a toy gun? Or one of those Hollywood prop guns...

Your trainers don't have training guns?
The scenario I gave you is what we as an agency have been using for several years. 2100 officers several times a year, every year for DT refresher training.

 

[Cosmoline]

Cosmo, what did you do to that nice doggie to make him so mad?

I ran 21 feet up to him and smacked him on the head with a padded sitck

That's my buddy Cohen. He's a big silly, but I know perfectly well he dreams every night of chasing people down and eating manflesh. He'd like nothing better than to have someone come charging up at me in a dark alley.

 

[280PLUS]

Your trainers don't have training guns?

Not to my knowledge, I've seen a training knife around but never a gun. I'll bring it up next time I get together with them. Chances are there's one around.

I ran 21 feet up to him and smacked him on the head with a padded sitck

LMAO...THAT would explain it. I thought maybe you took his doggie biscuit!

 

[gunfan]

I ran 21 feet up to him and smacked him on the head with a padded sitck

QUOTE]

That would piss me off too!

If you practice sufficiently, it (the loss of fine motor control) should deteriorate less under stress!

Scott

 

[Jamie C.]

If you practice sufficiently, it (the loss of fine motor control) should deteriorate less under stress!

If you can practice under conditions that stress you out, this is true, at least to a degree. Just working on you marksmanship alone won't do it, however.

And given that people are stressed by different things, it can get rather tough to find one ( a situation ) that works for a given individual.

Also, you can't rule out the fact that for many people, anything other than the "real thing" is taken only as some kind of game. In other words, no matter how nasty it gets, training-wise, they still know they're safe, somewhere in the back of their minds... And may very well fold up the first time it's "real".


J.C.

P.S. Still not saying you shouldn't practice your shooting skills, ever chance you get. Every little bit helps, after all. Maybe. Hopefully.

 

[bachman1961]

The close quarter combat reading I did (definition) was re; 1992 printing and 9 to 21 feet was the range most often identified.
That book also stated some stats of a national average if I recall correctly... Law Enforcement average hit on target / shots fired was at or below 25 percent. (Real gun fights) The training was being stepped up and more focus on duty weapon and back up weapon training with duty rounds.
Also,, a legal consideration State by State is the Retreat law regarding the actual threat. In some cases you are legally bound to retreat or escape from the threat if there is a plausible way out.

 

[280PLUS]

Also, you can't rule out the fact that for many people, anything other than the "real thing" is taken only as some kind of game. In other words, no matter how nasty it gets, training-wise, they still know they're safe, somewhere in the back of their minds... And may very well fold up the first time it's "real".

Which is why I suggested boxing or other full contact martial art. You can take it to a level where it IS real if you desire and learn to function accordingly.

 

[SAWBONES]

If you can't reliably "place" your shots at the range, you'll never do it in "for real" conditions.
I see folks at the range every week who've never learned the basics.
Hopefully, most folks here aren't in that camp.

IME, the primary impediment to accurate shot placement AFTER the basics of sight alignment and trigger control are well learned, is "trigger-jerking".

We all do it, especially when we're trying to maintain sight alignment AND fire the weapon under TIME CONSTRAINTS, as with a target that's moving or only briefly visible.
We strive to overcome this by practice, but it happens to all of us some of the time.

 

[CraigJS]

If at all possible you have to ID your threat before they get to that "10 or 20foot" point or else be ready for the possibility of, 1. you being shot, or 2. having to literally gut shoot the BG as they come in. If you don't see the threat comming, the bad guy WILL have the drop on you, and by the time you react your in deep defication.. It's not the old west seeing who can slap leather first. Why do you think that a LEO will draw their pieces before the lethal threat happens. They have ID'd the potential of having to use lethel force.. Then training and skill come into play.
Opinions?
CraigJS

 

[gunfan]

If at all possible you have to ID your threat before they get to that "10 or 20foot" point or else be ready for the possibility of, 1. you being shot, or 2. having to literally gut shoot the BG as they come in. If you don't see the threat comming, the bad guy WILL have the drop on you, and by the time you react your in deep defication.. It's not the old west seeing who can slap leather first. Why do you think that a LEO will draw their pieces before the lethal threat happens. They have ID'd the potential of having to use lethel force.. Then training and skill come into play.
Opinions?
CraigJS

I agree. There is nothing worse that the inablilty to react with the "window of a threat." Prepare, or die.

Scott

 

[Island Beretta]

technical training to shoot a handgun doesn't influence how you react under stress but it is one less thing to worry about.. one is physical the other is physiological and psychological..I have known ccw holders who have given their guns to captors and had it used against them.. others fight it out.. self-defense is not the weapon, it is the person..the best thing you can do is to get out of your own way so the reptilian brain can function

We have seen examples of top shooters who because of a psychological issue suddenly can't trip the trigger to fire the weapon e.g. close to breaking a record..just recently a GM trying for a sub 3 el presidente on realising he was on his way to making it had his trigger finger freeze up on the last shot....

when I shoot if I ever think of doing it fast you can bet your last dollar, its not going to be fast..or as fast as I would like..