jefnvk
Member
Shameless self promotion: http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=3649318
Why carry at universities?
- Thread starter JamesM
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May be more difficult that you think.
Safe campuses are MARKETABLE campuses. There are crimes that never make it into the statistics for various reasons.
We saw evidence of this recently with the rape/murder of a college student at Eastern Michigan where the family was told that their daughter died of Natural Causes. The administration was aware that there was a serial rapist on campus but did not want the information made public.
The president of the university and some others lost their jobs. This was a few weeks ago.
http://www.abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=3381101&page=1
As an old frat guy, I've known about a LOT that never got reported or investigated on college campuses. Unfortunately, I have always learned 'after-the-fact" and never had evidence. However, we did have to deal with some things internally. My college roommate was a member of a rival fraternity, and from speaking with him, it seemed that we were not unique.
-- John
One issue- if they say "no" expect your name to be on a list with pubilc safety and they could probably randomly pat you down during the semester. "This is that guy who wanted to carry a gun on campus..." could be a negative label.
It makes very little sense for a dean to allow you to carry on campus, even if you have a CCW. If they gave you persmission, and you went nuts and shot some people- the liability issue would be HUGE, beyond what it normally would be. :banghead:
You have to analyze this from the school's lawyer's point of view.
fletcher
Member
I would carry at a university because crime can happen anywhere. My school had, in the last year, about 6 armed robberies. In almost all of those cases, the individual(s) were following campus police advice of "travel in groups", "stay under streetlights", etc. The justification is the exact same as carrying anywhere else.
Here are ours:
http://www.ncsu.edu/ncsu/public_safety/campus_safety/stats.htm
Also +1 on the Clery Act. Yearly the Campus PD sends an email out saying "here are crime stats for campus and the surrounding area as required by ___".
Here are ours:
http://www.ncsu.edu/ncsu/public_safety/campus_safety/stats.htm
Texas9
Member
Simplify the question...
...and get a more satisfying answer.
The question is not, "Why carry at a university?" The question is not, "Why carry _______ (insert location of any sort here)?"
The question is simply, "Why carry?" To me, that question was answered by one of the mods here and author of "the munchkin wrangler."
Read the best answer to that question here:
Why the Gun is Civilization
Think about that next time someone asks you any sort of "why" type question involving carrying a firearm.
...and get a more satisfying answer.
The question is not, "Why carry at a university?" The question is not, "Why carry _______ (insert location of any sort here)?"
The question is simply, "Why carry?" To me, that question was answered by one of the mods here and author of "the munchkin wrangler."
Read the best answer to that question here:
Why the Gun is Civilization
Think about that next time someone asks you any sort of "why" type question involving carrying a firearm.
xd9fan
Member
This should be the first sentence out of everybodys mouth........then you will see just how are fellow americans feel and think about liberty
Dorryn
Member
I tried this. Twice. Permission was denied me both times, despite the fact that one of the cities highest-crime areas is a block away...
They just dont trust us.
They just dont trust us.
Cougfan2
Member
Why carry at universities?
Because that's where the liberals are. It's a target rich environment!
Just kidding! Just kidding!
Because that's where the liberals are. It's a target rich environment!
Just kidding! Just kidding!
fishingjld
Member
awesome i hope this works out for you. i am sure they will say no because of insurance reasons and him saying yes would somehow make him liable. that is what i was told by one of my previous employers. i think the exact words were... "i don't care if you keep it in your car, but i can't have you shooting everyone just because they made you angry." i was like wow i guess he thinks i am a psychopath.
You might do some research and put together a list of campus shootings. Ask them if they can guarantee your protection.
I think another good resource is Clayton Cramer's civilian gun defense blog:
http://www.claytoncramer.com/gundefenseblog/blogger.html
It is loaded with news articles about civilians legally using guns to defend themselves. It seems like they add 2 or 3 every day on average.
I think another good resource is Clayton Cramer's civilian gun defense blog:
http://www.claytoncramer.com/gundefenseblog/blogger.html
It is loaded with news articles about civilians legally using guns to defend themselves. It seems like they add 2 or 3 every day on average.
woof
Member
It's easier to get forgiveness than permission.
The more I think about this issue to more ridiculous it becomes. The comments and information everyone is posting is really helping me put together a good set of talking points.
Since it not illegal, I thought the same thing. On the other hand, why should I have to take the risk just so other people can “feel” safer with this rule on the books? What would stop some administrator from trying to make an example out of me?
woof said:
Since it not illegal, I thought the same thing. On the other hand, why should I have to take the risk just so other people can “feel” safer with this rule on the books? What would stop some administrator from trying to make an example out of me?
So the answer was no. The main reason given was that they don’t want guns on campus because it is a place of learning and it is in the rules.
I was asked if I was concerned about my safety on campus or off campus. I said both and pointed out there is no reason why the campus should be any different than the surrounding area. A few questions were asked about my habits on campus. I assume this was to determine if I was engaging in any unnecessary risky behavior. I wasn’t. Since there was no simple solution, the discussion proceeded. I don’t remember the exact words so I will just outline the key points.
Things they acknowledged in the discussion:
1. There have been violent attacks recently committed on and around campus, some even resulting in death.
2. There is no way they can prevent all attacks on campus.
3. They do nothing to prevent people from bringing weapons on to campus.
4. They will not do anything in the future to prevent people from bringing weapons on to campus.
5. The average response time of officers is around 2 min (I then asked how much bodily harm can be inflicted in two minutes. I was told that I knew the answer to that question).
6. There is no legal consequence for bringing a weapon on campus.
7. Only students and staff are subject to “administrative” consequences.
8. If you are not a student or staff member all they can do is ask you to leave.
Solutions to my concern:
1. Call and request an escort when walking around campus (unarmed volunteer).
2. Have a safety person come and inspect my habits and offer safety suggestions.
3. Walk in a group.
4. Stay under streetlights.
5. Check my gun at the police station when I get to campus (I didn’t point out that I would have to walk through campus to get to the police station).
Reasons for my denial:
1. It is against the rules. (I pointed out it was only against the rules if they said NO)
2. They don’t want someone to take my gun from me and use it on the campus population. (I asked if they would change their mind if I had taken a handgun retention class and carry in a retention holster. Still No. I also pointed out that I carry a gun everywhere else and nobody has taken it from me yet. Still nothing).
I asked if I was a 100lb woman with a stalker would I be allowed to carry. They wouldn’t answer that question. I also asked what criteria a person must fulfill before they are authorized to carry on campus (no answer to this either).
The conversation went on for about 20 minutes. They did not want a debate and I didn’t think I would make any headway by continuing. I thanked them for taking the time to speak with me, and left. Logic and facts are clearly on my side but that doesn’t seem to be enough. Perhaps I could be more effective if I tried to have the rule removed rather than get permission. Now to figure out who writes the rules…
I was asked if I was concerned about my safety on campus or off campus. I said both and pointed out there is no reason why the campus should be any different than the surrounding area. A few questions were asked about my habits on campus. I assume this was to determine if I was engaging in any unnecessary risky behavior. I wasn’t. Since there was no simple solution, the discussion proceeded. I don’t remember the exact words so I will just outline the key points.
Things they acknowledged in the discussion:
1. There have been violent attacks recently committed on and around campus, some even resulting in death.
2. There is no way they can prevent all attacks on campus.
3. They do nothing to prevent people from bringing weapons on to campus.
4. They will not do anything in the future to prevent people from bringing weapons on to campus.
5. The average response time of officers is around 2 min (I then asked how much bodily harm can be inflicted in two minutes. I was told that I knew the answer to that question).
6. There is no legal consequence for bringing a weapon on campus.
7. Only students and staff are subject to “administrative” consequences.
8. If you are not a student or staff member all they can do is ask you to leave.
Solutions to my concern:
1. Call and request an escort when walking around campus (unarmed volunteer).
2. Have a safety person come and inspect my habits and offer safety suggestions.
3. Walk in a group.
4. Stay under streetlights.
5. Check my gun at the police station when I get to campus (I didn’t point out that I would have to walk through campus to get to the police station).
Reasons for my denial:
1. It is against the rules. (I pointed out it was only against the rules if they said NO)
2. They don’t want someone to take my gun from me and use it on the campus population. (I asked if they would change their mind if I had taken a handgun retention class and carry in a retention holster. Still No. I also pointed out that I carry a gun everywhere else and nobody has taken it from me yet. Still nothing).
I asked if I was a 100lb woman with a stalker would I be allowed to carry. They wouldn’t answer that question. I also asked what criteria a person must fulfill before they are authorized to carry on campus (no answer to this either).
The conversation went on for about 20 minutes. They did not want a debate and I didn’t think I would make any headway by continuing. I thanked them for taking the time to speak with me, and left. Logic and facts are clearly on my side but that doesn’t seem to be enough. Perhaps I could be more effective if I tried to have the rule removed rather than get permission. Now to figure out who writes the rules…
fletcher
Member
Well, what if I don't want cars in a restaurant because it's a place of eating? Makes no sense.
That's the exact same word-for-word stuff that our campus said. Problem is, a number of the robberies occured when suggestions #3 and #4 were being followed. There was also an occurence a while back where an escort ended up raping/assaulting the girl he was called to escort (not at NCSU, somewhere else). Those are joke solutions.
Now, #5 is actually interesting. That at least offers some degree of protection during travel, but you're disarmed upon setting foot on campus. I do wish my school would have offered that when I was there.
Danus ex
Member
I was going to post here a few days ago, but got distracted. I carried on campus at a huge university. I think that by simply making the appointment you went too far.
All of us know that universities regularly squash other constitutionally-given rights, what makes you think they'll be reasonable this time? Your school's administration has both a status quo and a public facade to maintain, and your mere ownership of a gun conforms to neither. By coming forward, you've outed yourself for persecution.
Schools do have "secret files" on students. I know that my rap sheet, for example, lists several incidents resulting from my poor relationship with my undergraduate adviser. I made an ass of myself regularly in that office, and all of it was noted. I can't imagine what's on your file now.
At any rate, concealed carry on campus is as easy as it is everywhere else. In fact, I think it's easier: nobody expects a dashing young American university man to carry a gun, and college students are about the most oblivious people walking the planet. Still, it is possible to get caught carrying, so you have to take steps to ensure that you don't get caught (use stalls instead of urinals, wear effective cover garments, beware of hard-back chairs, etc.). The main factor is attitude, though. If carrying a gun makes you anxious, paranoid, hostile, or affects you in any other indicatively bad way, you're sunk.
All of us know that universities regularly squash other constitutionally-given rights, what makes you think they'll be reasonable this time? Your school's administration has both a status quo and a public facade to maintain, and your mere ownership of a gun conforms to neither. By coming forward, you've outed yourself for persecution.
Schools do have "secret files" on students. I know that my rap sheet, for example, lists several incidents resulting from my poor relationship with my undergraduate adviser. I made an ass of myself regularly in that office, and all of it was noted. I can't imagine what's on your file now.
At any rate, concealed carry on campus is as easy as it is everywhere else. In fact, I think it's easier: nobody expects a dashing young American university man to carry a gun, and college students are about the most oblivious people walking the planet. Still, it is possible to get caught carrying, so you have to take steps to ensure that you don't get caught (use stalls instead of urinals, wear effective cover garments, beware of hard-back chairs, etc.). The main factor is attitude, though. If carrying a gun makes you anxious, paranoid, hostile, or affects you in any other indicatively bad way, you're sunk.
Maybe this post from DefensiveCarry.com will be of help to you.
http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=30642
University of Utah Campus Gun Policy
Thanks to Utah's excellent preemption law, it is possible to carry a concealed weapon on the University of Utah campus (and the campuses of other state universities) without violating the law or University policy. I'm a UofU student and I take full advantage of this.
This excellent situation came about despite fierce resistance from the university administration. Despite the law clearly prohibiting any state agency from banning guns, the university had to be dragged kicking and screaming through the courts before they agreed to change the rules and allow students, faculty and staff to carry firearms on campus. Thus far, the university has not been very friendly towards the idea of concealed weapons.
Given this background, I was pleasantly surprised to get the following e-mail from the University today.
Quote:
Originally Posted by University of Utah
Questions about Weapons on Campus
The Campus Security Task Force was appointed by President Young to address concerns regarding campus safety in the face of news reports about violence and weapons on college campuses. One of its charges was to provide some guidance to the campus community regarding weapons.
With two exceptions, the University of Utah does not allow lethal weapons on campus – that policy applies to firearms, knives, explosives, or other items whose central purpose is inflicting harm on others. The two exceptions to this policy are the firearms carried by law enforcement officers and concealed weapons carried by lawful permit holders. Those persons who have a permit to carry a concealed weapon must keep their weapons concealed while on campus.
Faculty, staff, or students may become aware of the presence of a weapon in their immediate vicinity either by happenstance as when a concealed weapon is momentarily visible or through deliberate action of the possessor. In either event, the advice of law enforcement experts is the same – stay calm and avoid confrontation whenever possible.
Nobody other than an official law enforcement officer should ask the possessor of a weapon whether he/she has a concealed carry permit. Trained peace officers are the right people to deal with this issue.
In all situations – STAY CALM – AVOID CONFRONTATION if at all possible
1. If a weapon is not being brandished in a threatening manner, there is no reason for you to become directly involved with the weapon. This is true whether it is openly visible or only briefly exposed. If you have any concern about the weapon’s presence, then
a. make note of the identity of the possessor
b. call 585-2677 (5-COPS) or 9-911
c. do not ask the possessor for a weapon permit
2. If a weapon is being brandished in a threatening manner or the possessor seems unstable, then
a. STAY CALM – do not make the situation worse by confrontation if it can be avoided
b. call 585-2677 (5-COPS) or 9-911
3. If you are threatened directly or if violence erupts, then
a. STAY CALM
i. take evasive action
ii. do not enter any area without knowing what is there
iii. use self-defense methods only to the extent that you are familiar or comfortable with them
iv. look for the most solid protection available (e.g., prefer solid wood furniture over drywall)
b. call 585-2677 (5-COPS) or 9-911
I've highlighted the two bits that stand out to me. First, the university acknowledges that not every sighting of a weapon should prompt a call to the police. Of course this may just be a matter of practicality. If the university police were called every time someone printed or accidentally flashed on campus, it would suck up a huge amount of their time. While the policy described above is pretty good, it's not beyond improvement. I would like to see a bit more guidance about what sort of behavior is cause for "concern" that would merit calling the police. After all, I'm sure there are plenty of people on campus who would freak out at the mere sight of a firearm. Nonetheless, this acknowledgment that not all firearms on campus are "bad" is a good start.
The second bit I bolded is the one that really surprises me. I would have expected the usual lily livered, "don't resist because you might get hurt," sort of admonition. However, the university seems to be acknowledging that there is actually a valid place for self defense when you are faced with the threat of violence. This would be a refreshing position for any governmental authority to take, and coming from an organization that has spent so much time and effort trying to prevent students, faculty, and staff from being able to effectively defend themselves, it is truly amazing.
The university administration has not been a friend to CCWers in the past, but I have to give credit where it is due. This is probably the most sensible weapons and self defense policy that I've seen from any government organization, much less a university. Kudos to the University of Utah! Go Utes!
____________
Good luck on your journey!
http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=30642
University of Utah Campus Gun Policy
Thanks to Utah's excellent preemption law, it is possible to carry a concealed weapon on the University of Utah campus (and the campuses of other state universities) without violating the law or University policy. I'm a UofU student and I take full advantage of this.
This excellent situation came about despite fierce resistance from the university administration. Despite the law clearly prohibiting any state agency from banning guns, the university had to be dragged kicking and screaming through the courts before they agreed to change the rules and allow students, faculty and staff to carry firearms on campus. Thus far, the university has not been very friendly towards the idea of concealed weapons.
Given this background, I was pleasantly surprised to get the following e-mail from the University today.
Quote:
Originally Posted by University of Utah
Questions about Weapons on Campus
The Campus Security Task Force was appointed by President Young to address concerns regarding campus safety in the face of news reports about violence and weapons on college campuses. One of its charges was to provide some guidance to the campus community regarding weapons.
With two exceptions, the University of Utah does not allow lethal weapons on campus – that policy applies to firearms, knives, explosives, or other items whose central purpose is inflicting harm on others. The two exceptions to this policy are the firearms carried by law enforcement officers and concealed weapons carried by lawful permit holders. Those persons who have a permit to carry a concealed weapon must keep their weapons concealed while on campus.
Faculty, staff, or students may become aware of the presence of a weapon in their immediate vicinity either by happenstance as when a concealed weapon is momentarily visible or through deliberate action of the possessor. In either event, the advice of law enforcement experts is the same – stay calm and avoid confrontation whenever possible.
Nobody other than an official law enforcement officer should ask the possessor of a weapon whether he/she has a concealed carry permit. Trained peace officers are the right people to deal with this issue.
In all situations – STAY CALM – AVOID CONFRONTATION if at all possible
1. If a weapon is not being brandished in a threatening manner, there is no reason for you to become directly involved with the weapon. This is true whether it is openly visible or only briefly exposed. If you have any concern about the weapon’s presence, then
a. make note of the identity of the possessor
b. call 585-2677 (5-COPS) or 9-911
c. do not ask the possessor for a weapon permit
2. If a weapon is being brandished in a threatening manner or the possessor seems unstable, then
a. STAY CALM – do not make the situation worse by confrontation if it can be avoided
b. call 585-2677 (5-COPS) or 9-911
3. If you are threatened directly or if violence erupts, then
a. STAY CALM
i. take evasive action
ii. do not enter any area without knowing what is there
iii. use self-defense methods only to the extent that you are familiar or comfortable with them
iv. look for the most solid protection available (e.g., prefer solid wood furniture over drywall)
b. call 585-2677 (5-COPS) or 9-911
I've highlighted the two bits that stand out to me. First, the university acknowledges that not every sighting of a weapon should prompt a call to the police. Of course this may just be a matter of practicality. If the university police were called every time someone printed or accidentally flashed on campus, it would suck up a huge amount of their time. While the policy described above is pretty good, it's not beyond improvement. I would like to see a bit more guidance about what sort of behavior is cause for "concern" that would merit calling the police. After all, I'm sure there are plenty of people on campus who would freak out at the mere sight of a firearm. Nonetheless, this acknowledgment that not all firearms on campus are "bad" is a good start.
The second bit I bolded is the one that really surprises me. I would have expected the usual lily livered, "don't resist because you might get hurt," sort of admonition. However, the university seems to be acknowledging that there is actually a valid place for self defense when you are faced with the threat of violence. This would be a refreshing position for any governmental authority to take, and coming from an organization that has spent so much time and effort trying to prevent students, faculty, and staff from being able to effectively defend themselves, it is truly amazing.
The university administration has not been a friend to CCWers in the past, but I have to give credit where it is due. This is probably the most sensible weapons and self defense policy that I've seen from any government organization, much less a university. Kudos to the University of Utah! Go Utes!
____________
Good luck on your journey!
Blackbeard
Member
See if they'll sign a statement acknowledging these things, and that they still refuse to allow you to carry. Then tell them if you get attacked on campus you're suing.
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