Why DAO only triggers?

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UKJ

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Can I ask why some shooters insist on a DAO (or variant thereof) for their full sized auto pistols?

For LEO's, I can kind of understand - a nervous cop with a hair trigger might accidentally waste a shoplifter or their tactical gloves might set off an AD hitting their buddy in front, but why do some US civilians insist on a DAO trigger on an auto?

I always get my best results at the range with a single action trigger and if I'm using a wheelgun, I always cock the hammer first to ensure a smooth trigger pull.

If I were to carry, then a DA/SA with an exposed hammer and a decocker would probably be my preferred option.

Again, I'm talking about full sized autos and not pocket carry CCWs. I'd like to know your thoughts please.
 
I realized that I shoot much better with my tiny DAO because of it's smooth trigger than my SA fullsize. But most importantly, my controlled rapid fires are much tighter.
 
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DAO is a firm favorite of the poorly trained and the "can't walk and chew gum at the same time" crowd. Some good shots tolerate DAO for a desired small gun platform, but they are in the minority.

Lots of overlap and lots of badges in those first two groups. Face it, most cops shoot way fewer rounds per year than most gun enthusiasts. It is best that their manual of arms is dumbed down.
 
The mechanical differences for firearm triggers really don't have to be phrased in value judgements about skills or political assessments of groups. However, those concerns did play a part in the development of semi DAO triggers.

DAO triggers on SAs became more popular about twenty years ago, when the latest round of "gun control" activism geared up. That is, according to the (pro-)gun SD theories of the time, having a DAO trigger would effectively eliminate any charges based on canards about ADs or 'hair triggers.' IOW, there was an emerging notion of SD use requiring a deliberate action.

That deliberative action helps make a good shoot, period.

As for skill with DA-SA triggers, DAO triggers, or similar strokes on revolvers--it really comes down to enough drills to develop the muscle memory.

My first handgun for recreational shooting was a 1911--and eventually, it had a trigger job resulting in a crisp letoff at 2&3/4 lbs. However, my HD gun was a (S&W) 4043, which has a DAO trigger. The 4043, with an action-smoothing job, had a nominal 8-lb smooth stroke. With sufficient practice I was proficient with either pistol, and could readily switch between the two. (The different ergonomics are another story, however.)

I started revolver shooting last year--virtually exclusively DAO with j-frame revolvers. These revolvers have a nominal 9-10 lb. stroke.

Enough repetitions have brought my skills up here, too. It's really just a matter of practice and training. Personally, I now prefer DAO shooting, unless it's bulleye-type shooting, with anything but the 1911.

Jim H.
 
It can be preference ya know. Not all of us are all about the 1911 locked and cocked. I can just as easily pull a DA trigger without a safety on instead of taking the safety off a cocked 1911 and pulling the trigger. Idk what the OP is talking about, I am talking about Traditional Double Action.
 
Both traditional DAO and variants thereof - so all the DAK, QA, LEO, etc. trigger jobs.

I've fired the Walther P99 with the QA trigger, which is kind of like a two stage rifle affair. I thought it was a neat gimmick but I wondered about it's real word applications.

Surely, in a situation where you have your finger on the trigger, you're going to pull it (or at least be prepared to).

Unfortunately, I think Pizzagunner might be correct and the DAOs are only in existence (along with the 58 safeties that most guns have these days) to stop the uneducated from shooting themselves or other people.

If you can shoot more accurately with a DAO trigger, then I take my hat off to you. It's a skill I have never mastered properly.

Quick Edit: I stated that if I had to carry it would be a DA/SA with an exposed hammer and decocker. That way I could carry in Condition 2 and pull back the hammer manually if time allowed for a SA first shot.
 
Unfortunately, I think Pizzagunner might be correct and the DAOs are only in existence (along with the 58 safeties that most guns have these days) to stop the uneducated from shooting themselves or other people
Click to expand...

Really? Actually, I was just thinking you and Pizzagunner ought to post a target on the posted link below before making such bold statements.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=439939

I shot the centerfire portion with a DAO revolver, and I didn't shoot myself nor the ceiling tiles. "Education" aside, if either of you can do better (with your gun of choice), I'll publicly acknowledge the fact. (and pssst...I've shot similarly with a borrowed Kahr DAO pistol).

http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=5509068&postcount=15

if I'm using a wheelgun, I always cock the hammer first to ensure a smooth trigger pull.
Click to expand...

Obviously.

That doesn't mean there isn't merit to a DAO trigger. Some may simply shoot better with them. I've never found one trigger type or gun platform to be inherently better than another.

If you can shoot more accurately with a DAO trigger, then I take my hat off to you. It's a skill I have never mastered properly.
Click to expand...

Shootin's shootin'. The fundamentals never change. Spend more time shootin'. Pizzagunner too.
 
DAO's were created because of bureaucrats trying to make guns less dangerous, but it actually had a positive side.

There have been cases where depts removed the single action capability from revolvers to remove that tempation for the cops or prevent the accusation from lawyers claiming the cop created a "hair trigger" situation where the gun fired accidentally.

Many, if not most, people that say they can "shoot a revolver alright" really mean they cock the hammer for each shot.

Few take the time to learn how to fire DA accurately, slow or fast.

The TDA (Traditional Double Action) guns where the first shot is DA followed by SA shots thereafter addressed part of the concern: initial threat management.

For example, if you are holding a 1911, do you manage your threat with the safety on or off?

Also, the immediate change-up in trigger length, pull and feel between the first and second shot was difficult for many to overcome.

Another issue that came up was, if shots are fired, but there is still ammo in the gun, you'd need to remember to decock the gun (often a two-step process) or to reapply the safety.

DAO addresses these issues.
 
MrBorland,

I'm sure you are an excellent shot with your DAO pistol, but that still hasn't answered my question as to why civilians would deliberately choose a DAO pistol over a SA, especially for range work.

Telling me go back to the range and practice is meaningless. Education with firearm safety bears little relation to how many holes you can put in a target.

I suspect that DAO (and it's variations), plus the vast number of safeties have been created to protect firearms manufacturers from legal issues by the 'uneducated' shooting themselves and others. The number of self inflicted accidental handgun injuries in the US is astronomical.

Similarly, I suspect that there are a lot of new shooters who are nervous or have little confidence with firearms. If this is the case, I can understand why they would want a DAO pistol, but I don't believe they should own one (or any firearm) within 5 miles of me.

With all of us being human and therefore fallible, I'd like to think that every shooter has had one of those 'Jesus!'* moments when they've ND / AD on a range with no real ill effects and that experience has taught them to handle weapons safely in the future. But some people never learn or are never taught properly in the first place.

*If you are very religious, please excuse my blasphemy, I had no intention to denegrate your beliefs

Though this may be a very unpopular suggestion, perhaps it's time we thought about a mandatory safety course for all first time firearm owners.
 
If you can shoot more accurately with a DAO trigger, then I take my hat off to you. It's a skill I have never mastered properly.
Click to expand...
I have to ask, just how hard did you try?

DAO (and DA) type triggers are not at all difficult to learn to shoot, and your most apt to find, your groups will shrink once you learn to shoot with them.

At the very least, you will be a more rounded shooter, and can pick up just about anything and shoot it reasonably well.

On the other hand, those who can only shoot a SA gun are usually limited in their skills, and more often than not, for some reason seem to require an even lighter trigger than is prudently safe, especially on a gun thats to be used instead of played with.

If your to lazy to at least try and learn to shoot DA, you should at least just admit thats the reason why, since it takes no real effort other than a little practice to learn, and so much more is gained by dong so.
 
UKJ,

I love the way I am able to shoot my DAO guns, but the main reason I like them is for concealment and being able to draw them from concealment without fear of the hammer spur snagging on a shirt or pocket seam.
Here are my two Rugers that are factory DAO and perfect for concealed carry.
Ruger357magsR.jpg
Ruger357magsL.jpg

and accuracy is certainly not an issue with them.
W145ST15.jpg
 
"...Telling me go back to the range and practice is meaningless. Education with firearm safety (my emphasis) bears little relation to how many holes you can put in a target."
​

A couple of comments here, before this discussion seques off....

I don't see where Mr. Borland suggested range work for continued safety education. Insofar as his side comment about shooting the ceiling--it is a comment strictly about himself. So, let's not get undies in a bundle about possibly-implied derision.

There's nothing wrong with your suppositions about the reasons for various DA triggers and decocking mechanisms. You may well be right that newbie shooters are attracted to DAO triggers. But, learning to shoot--including fundamental skills and safety--has nothing to do with the trigger per se. It has to do with learning the requisite concepts and rules and learning the handling skills that demonstrate them.

As for mandatory training--well, that topic is mostly a political discussion, so I won't pursue it.

Now, restate for me your question about DAO triggers--I am confused about what your topic is.

Jim H.
 
Hi AK103K,

I have indeed fired pistols in a double action capacity, though mainly revolvers and the intial groupings were no where near as good as with SA auto pistols.

True, I might have given up a bit too easily and thought to myself 'to hell with this, why am I shooting this antiquated weapon system, it's not as good' or words to that effect. It seemed pointless (in my opinion) to actually make a conscious decision to go 'backwards' in terms of weapon technology, capacity and ease of use.

Again, I'd like to point out that my question about DAO only refers to full sized, civilian owned, auto pistols - not LE weapons or CCWs - where a strong case for DAO is perfectly viable.

Quick Edit: Apologies jfh, the real question is why buy a set up with an awkward, heavy trigger system when you can get a lighter, smoother system instead?
 
Why? There are a variety of reasons; which one doesn't really matter. Folks who have decided on the various trigger configurations which fall under the OP's broad definition of "DAO" in post #7 aren't wrong. They merely have different preferences than the those who prefer SAO and D/SA actions.

And some of those folks can flat out shoot. Many better than any argument to the contrary; and likely the critic behind the argument.
 
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but that still hasn't answered my question as to why civilians would deliberately choose a DAO pistol over a SA, especially for range work.
Click to expand...
Believe it or dont, but DA shooting forces you to shoot tighter groups, mainly because it forces you to concentrate on your sights and pay less attention to the trigger. If your concentrating on your sights, you tend to get that "surprise break" and dont anticipate the shot.

The trigger really isnt as critical as some seem to think. As long as its clean, heavy isnt a bad thing, nor will it hinder you from shooting well.

Those of us who do shoot DA/DAO know its not hard to learn, and I know I personally dont believe those who tell me they "cant" shoot a DA trigger. What I hear is they never bothered to put any effort out to try, and are just making excuses.
 
I just bought my first DAO gun, a Kahr K9. I was simply blown away how easy it is to shoot this gun accurately, compared to the long, hard DA pulls on my Ruger, CZ, S&W and Sig. Night and day difference.

Shorter, lighter pull. None of the mush from the other striker fired guns I've tried, Glock and XD.
 
Thank you all for your answers. I apologise if I've taken my own post off topic by linking it with the firearm safety aspects. I'd also like to apologise to MrBorland, I may have interpreted his post in an aggressive way and responded inappropriately.

So the simple answer is...personal preference. Some shooters not only like but excel with DAO pistols. Who'd have thunk it?

In the meantime, I'll try giving DA revolvers another chance at the range, but I'll stick with SA for the autos, it just seems right to me.

All the best,

'Lazy' UKJ
 
To keep inciting that only newbs would go for DA's or DA/SA's is kinda ignorant.
Why do I want a heavy trigger pull? Because I don't want to accidentally fire when I don't mean to if I have to pull out. Does that make me a newb? Not really. It just means that I have a consideration for things. And please, spare me the part where more "experienced" gun owners don't have those negligent discharges you speak of.
http://www.thegunzone.com/nd.html
http://www.negligentdischarge.com/
Another thing I disagree with, when you say that you don't want those people within 5 miles of you, you should realize that even you were not born with gun knowledge and experience. What I mean to say is that everyone learns somewhere.
And I am pretty sure Single action came before Double action. So, technically, all those single actions you are talking about are the older technology. ;)
 
Pizzagunner,

How much actual experience do you have to qualify your statements?

I'm going with little or none, but please, do enlighten us. :rolleyes:
 
Hi kyo,

My 5 mile exclusion zone still stands for nervous shooters lacking in confidence and ill at ease with firearms, especially if they've just bought their first pistol from a gun store and have had no form of safety training.

I certainly don't want to infringe the rights of others when it comes to firearms ownship, but then again, I don't want to die either. Thanks to You Tube, I've witnessed some truly ignorant people handling and shooting firearms and it has put the fear of God into me.

I never said that experienced gun owners have never had a negligent discharge, I've said the exact opposite. At one time or another, just about every shooter has had an AD / ND. Thankfully, most of these happen at a range and no one is hurt. On the plus side, after the AD / ND, most shooters usually treat their weapons with a more safety conscious focus from then on.

Single Action Auto Pistols came before Double Action Revolvers? Can I borrow your time machine please?:neener:
 
FWIW, I have very small hands, and I can not reach the trigger on most Double Action handguns. I have a CZ-82 that I have to shoot single action, I can not reach the trigger when it is on Double Action. The only two DAO pistols I have found that I can reach the trigger on are the Kahr PM-9 and the Keltec P3AT. I had a S&W 686 that I shot by cocking with my thumb, but I couldn't shoot it worth a darn.
Since I like the higher powered rounds and don't have a lot of money, I pretty much only shoot single action pistols. I can shoot the Colt 1911 with the short trigger, the Star Super is a better reach, and the various Tokarevs even better. My present carry pistol is a Tokarev chambered in 9x23 Winchester, the ballistic duplicate of the 357 Magnum. I think that DA/DAO/SA is pretty much a personal choice, which depends on what works best for the individual.

Kyo. he didn't say Single Action Auto, he said just Single Action. He is correct.
 
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