Why DAO only triggers?

[David E]

The polymer Kahrs are the only ones that I am familiar with and they are striker fire, which is not DAO. Sure some people call them such but they are not. Double action is when the trigger "cocks" the action. Striker fire actions are already cocked.

Not true.

A DA cocks AND releases the hammer/striker.

Kahr's and Glock have a partially cocked striker. Pulling the trigger completes the striker's rearward travel before releasing it.

This is why many hate Glocks, XD's and Kahr's PM line.

People hate these guns for many other reasons besides the striker action.

 

[UKJ]

Oh David E, you won't let this lie will you?

The fact that I'm not overly keen on shooting people dead at the first opportunity seems to somehow disgust you.

You also seem offended that I value my life so highly, that I don't want ignorant or dangerous people firing guns near me.

And then you infer that I'm not on the side of legal, sane gun owners by daring to suggest that first time gun owners attend a mandatory safety course.

Unlike in the police or military, where they give 'em a rifle, let them drink a fifth of JD and tell 'em to just shoot up some cans in the backyard. No wait, they make everybody take a mandatory safety course - what a bunch of anti-gun Nazi Commies.

We obviously differ in our opinions and that's cool, the world would be boring if we agreed on everything. Anyway, this 'casual' shooter is going to head out and have a bit of 'casual' fun.

Have a good weekend.

 

[MCgunner]

Quote:
This is why many hate Glocks, XD's and Kahr's PM line.



People hate these guns for many other reasons besides the striker action.

Hate is a strong word. The "safe action" has a short, light trigger. I find it totally undesirable to carry such a gun. The Springfield XDs have a good idea, adding a grip safety. If I carried such a gun, I'd look at an XD.

 

[David E]

UKJ:

And then you infer that I'm not on the side of legal, sane gun owners by daring to suggest that first time gun owners attend a mandatory safety course.

I did not mean to infer anything.

If you are for mandatory safety courses for first time gun owners, then you are NOT on the side of lawful gunowners.

I hope that clears it up for you.

.

 

[Guillermo]

Pulling the trigger completes the striker's rearward travel before releasing it.

The bottom line is that a striker fire is not DAO. A DAO is a gun that pulling the trigger works the action. With a Kahr, Glock, etc that is not what is happening. To call a striker fire gun a DAO is like calling a cocked and locked 1911 DAO. A true DAO would be like a Smith Model 59. The hammer is pulled back by pulling the trigger.

Come on...this is The High Road...we are supposed to be more informed than the average person.

 

[Mike J]

UKJ- There are so many things that have come up in this thread I'm not gonna adress all of them. As far as someone prefering DAO, SA/DA, DA/SA, Single Action, Safe Action, or USA(Universal Safe Action) triggers it doesn't matter they all work. Everyone has different preferences and different reasons for those preferences. I recently bought a compact DAO semiauto. Today was the first time I got to shoot it. The trigger was very looong & hard but after putting about 70 rounds through it my Ruger P-944 & XD-40(DA/SA & USA action) pistols felt like they had target triggers. My groups were smaller. I believe the more I shoot that little P-11 the better I will shoot my full size pistols. My goal is to become a more proficient shooter-partly because I want to be able to protect my family & myself-partly because I enjoy the challenge of improving my marksmanship. Shooting DAO improves marksmanship skills with any platform you choose to shoot.
As far as the mandantory safety training for first time firearm owners there is a reason many here do not like the concept. The thing is sensible & intelligent as this idea sounds it could be used to prevent firearm ownership. Who would decide what level of training is necessary? Who would decide how much said training should cost? I would think these decisions would be made by the government (politicians). This would be a way an unscrupulous politician with an anti gun agenda could deter future gun owners by making the training so time consuming & expensive that the average working stiff just wouldn't have the time or funds to pursue it. Sometimes when I think I have really good ideas or opinions it pays to bounce them off others & listen with an open mind to their feedback. There are often things I don't know or other aspects I may not have thought of.

 

[REAPER4206969]

The bottom line is that a striker fire is not DAO. A DAO is a gun that pulling the trigger works the action. With a Kahr, Glock, etc that is not what is happening. To call a striker fire gun a DAO is like calling a cocked and locked 1911 DAO. A true DAO would be like a Smith Model 59. The hammer is pulled back by pulling the trigger.

Come on...this is The High Road...we are supposed to be more informed than the average person.

The Glock is a true double action. When you press the trigger to the rear the striker is being drawn to the full cock position and released. That is double action.


From Glock's website:

TRIGGER SYSTEM
The “Safe Action” system is a partly tensioned firing pin lock, which is moved further back by the trigger bar when the trigger is pulled.
When the trigger is pulled, 3 safety features are automatically deactivated one after another. When doing so, the trigger bar is deflected downward by the connector and the firing pin is released under full load. When the trigger is released, all three safety features re-engage and the GLOCK pistol is automatically secured again.

 

[Deanimator]

The Glock is a true double action. When you press the trigger to the rear the striker is being drawn to the full cock position and released. That is double action.

No, it's not. When you cycle the slide, the striker is "pre-cocked". Pulling the trigger retracts the striker the rest of the way and releases it. If the gun fails to fire, you CANNOT pull the trigger again without cycling the slide. In a real DA gun like a Beretta 92 or 92D, you can just pull the trigger again to cause the hammer to restrike the firing pin and in turn, the primer.

 

[Glockman17366]

My carry gun, a Taurus 851, has a shrouded hammer. Theoretically, this gun can be cocked for SA, but it's a bitch to do so.
The reason I bought this gun was for the easier draw from a pocket holster. No chance of the hammer spur snagging. Easier on the clothing too, BTW.
My other CCW(s) are Glocks. I like these mostly due to the toughness of the gun and ease of take down for cleaning.

I don't care for safties on a carry gun, so SA, such as a 1911, aren't on my list for carry. I like the caliber, and I do own a 1911 (Colt series 80 parkerized)...just don't care to carry one.

 

[David E]

As I previously stated, the Glock and Kahr have a partially cocked striker. Pulling the trigger completes the rearward travel before releasing it.

Does this make it a true double action? No. This is why Gaston Glock came up with the "Safe Action" moniker to describe a unique action type.

To say the Glock is a DAO just just as much as a 1911 is a DAO flaunts one's ignorance about how a Glock actually works.

Evenso, these are mere nits that are being picked.

There are advantages to DAO/Safe Action/TDA that are not shared with SA autos like the 1911 and vice versa. As long as you pick one you can shoot well at speed and have confidence in, then it's a good fit for you.

 

[jad0110]

True, I might have given up a bit too easily and thought to myself 'to hell with this, why am I shooting this antiquated weapon system, it's not as good' or words to that effect. It seemed pointless (in my opinion) to actually make a conscious decision to go 'backwards' in terms of weapon technology, capacity and ease of use.

You would not be the only one who has given up early on DA shooting, so don't sweat it. Many, upon firing a few DA shots with a revolver throw up their hands and say "it can't be done!" and go back to SA shooting.

I used to be one of those types, but when I heard the "it can't be done" line, I got kinda irked and took it as a challenge!

Actually, as others have indicated it really wasn't all that difficult. After only about 300-500 rounds fired DA, I could shoot DA about as well as SA. Building up finger strength was definitely part of it. After 1000 more, I could shoot DA better than SA. What I have found is that DA shooting acts as a sort of counterbalance, if that is the right way of saying, giving greater control/precision. Assuming the DA pull is decent.

That's the other thing, just because a SA trigger pull is light doesn't automatically make it smooth. What a light SA trigger does do is mask problems like roughness better to the inexperienced shooter. If you want to experience a velvety smooth trigger, try out a pre-war Colt, or long-action S&W revolver. The actions on those guns are slick enough to bring tears to a grown man's eyes.

As for the 2nd half of your statement, well, I do better shooting DA S&Ws than any other handgun platform (1911s, oddly, come a very close 2nd), so for me they are most certainly not antiquated. As they say: software, not hardware.

In the end, we all have our preferences. If your's is SA, there is nothing wrong with that. Though it would be wise to at a minimum build your skills with DA weapons to round out your skills.

 

[REAPER4206969]

No, it's not. When you cycle the slide, the striker is "pre-cocked". Pulling the trigger retracts the striker the rest of the way and releases it. If the gun fails to fire, you CANNOT pull the trigger again without cycling the slide. In a real DA gun like a Beretta 92 or 92D, you can just pull the trigger again to cause the hammer to restrike the firing pin and in turn, the primer.

Second strike capability has nothing to with determining the action of a pistol. Double action means that when the trigger is pulled fully to the rear TWO (2) actions are taking place, drawing the hammer/striker back, and releasing it firing the weapon. Do you not consider a Kel-Tec PF-9, P3AT, Ruger LCP and PARA Ordanance LDA (Light Double Action.) Etc. double action?

 

[UKJ]

To Mike J,

Thank you very much for your thoughtful and considered reply. In between all the hulabaloo, I did conceed that trigger types were down to personal preference but it was lost in the other debates and trying to defend my own personal point of view.

Again, I totally understand that by bringing in a mandatory saftey course, it could be hi-jacked by politicians who would use it to limit access to firearms. I'm hoping that would not be the case and that it would be similar to the procedure you go through to attain a CCW License.

It wouldn't have to be a lengthy or expensive course, maybe a couple of hours at a range with a qualified instructor. Afterwards, you get a certificate and a few perks like with a CCW - no waiting period on handguns, etc. It could also look good court-wise if you did have to defend yourself with a firearm.

Anyway, back to the DAO debate - the overriding consensus on the forum when it comes to grip size, recoil, caliber, etc. is always 'use what works best for you' - so for the present, I'll stick with that good advice.

Quick Edit: jad0110, I will follow your advice and give it another try. I think the only way I'm going to overcome this 'block' I have is to save up and buy myself a revolver. At least then, I'll have a new toy which I've invested money into, so that should be enough to make me want to shoot it. So, if all goes to plan, I should have a DA gun in six months time. I will let you know how I get on.

 

[Deanimator]

Second strike capability has nothing to with determining the action of a pistol.

In this case, it has EVERYTHING to do with it.

A DA mechanism COCKS AND FIRES the gun. There's no "pre-cocking". When you pull the trigger, the hammer or striker is retracted and released to fire a chambered round, PERIOD. If intermediate steps are required to fire a chambered round, it's NOT DA, much less DAO.

 

[WC145]

Wow, kind of an ugly thread considering the subject. I am a LEO, and while the original post excluded me based on that, since I choose to carry DAO/long smooth trigger pull (for the picky out there) guns both on and off duty I thought I'd chime in. My choice is simple, the guns that I carry all function basically the same way with similar feeling triggers and no safeties. So, whether I'm working and draw my Beretta 8000D or I'm not and I'm wearing my Kahr CW9 or I need my j frame BUG or grab my AMT Backup out of the console or I borrow my wife's Taurus 905, they all function the same way. I don't have to think about one operating differently than another, one having a very light trigger pull or needing to be decocked before reholstering, etc, etc.
IMO, simple is better, faster, safer, and nothing is simpler than than just having to pull the trigger.

BTW, I can walk and chew gum, have my own backyard range, and shoot several times a month in addition to required training and qualifying. Perhaps some of you shouldn't make such broad assumptions based on preferred actions or whether or not someone wears a badge.

 

[Guillermo]

This is a nice explanation of the difference between single action, double action and "safe action".

http://members.cox.net/guntraining/glocks.htm

 

[REAPER4206969]

Kel-Tec PF-9

A DA mechanism COCKS AND FIRES the gun.

That is what Glock’s “Safe-Action.” does!

There's no "pre-cocking". When you pull the trigger, the hammer or striker is retracted and released to fire a chambered round, PERIOD. If intermediate steps are required to fire a chambered round, it's NOT DA, much less DAO.

So ALL of those pre-set double action only pistols are not double action to you?

 

[Deanimator]

So ALL of those pre-set double action only pistols are not double action to you?

If you can't just pull the trigger as many times as you want to hit the same primer as many times as you want, without cycling the action, it's not DA.

 

[7mmSTW]

There are so many different trigger mechanisms labeled under "DAO" it's impossible to try and classify them as one. Traditional DAO on a semi auto pistol is outdated to me. New "DAO's" such as HK's LEM etc... are much more controllable and can be made as light with as short of reset as many SA's with the added benefeit of no external safeties to jockey with. As far as DAO revolvers I feel once you learn to properly manipulate the trigger and build strenth in your fingers they can be put to use very effectively. Learning this trigger discipline will only help a shooter, including the die hard SA guy. I got away with alot of bad habits for a long time using good triggers. I would probably have lived in bliss for years had I not learned DA triggers and their manipulation. Learning good trigger discipline has taken me to another level altogether.

 

[REAPER4206969]

So I and all the manufactures of Pre-set double action only pistols as well as the worthless BATFE are wrong?

 

[rscalzo]

Lots of overlap and lots of badges in those first two groups

Maybe you would like to describe your experiences on the street and the incidents you have been involved with to all of us. I'm always amazed that those never there always are first to comment.

 

[MCgunner]

My P11 has a true DAO with "second strike" capability. The PF9 and P3AT are more Glock like, though they use a hammer and have a longer trigger throw. I don't think of Glocks as DAO because they're so light and have such short travel, they're more like a creepy single action with no safety. That's why I call 'em "safe action" to delineate them from a decent DAO trigger that you're less likely to Plaxeco yourself with.

 

[Erik]

"So I and all the manufactures of Pre-set double action only pistols as well as the worthless BATFE are wrong?"

Yes. The topic has been relatively well covered over the years.

However, since the OP is using the layman's definitions (used by the marketers which have found themselves into the law in places) that's what we have been discussing.

Note: Double Action Only only allow... double action. It is as simple as that, actually. Glock's SA, HK's LEM and SIg's DAK allow for more than that; Glock's SA have two trigger pulls, HK and Sig three. I'm sure others can cite other actions designed along similar lines.

But... That seems certainly beyond this particular thread given some of the responses.

 

[REAPER4206969]

It does not matter what the trigger “Feels” like. All that matters is the mechanical actions taking place. In the Glock and other pistols I listed when the trigger is pulled to the rear the hammer/striker is being cocked and released. That is two (2) actions. That is Double Action.

 

[REAPER4206969]

I don't think of Glocks as DAO because they're so light and have such short travel, they're more like a creepy single action with no safety.

Try a Glock without the help of the coil trigger spring and you will feel that there is no appreciable difference between it and a double action only revolver.

That's why I call 'em "safe action" to delineate them from a decent DAO trigger that you're less likely to Plaxeco yourself with.

Keep your finger off the trigger and you will not have that problem with any firearm.