Why DAO only triggers?

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"when the trigger is pulled to the rear the hammer/striker is being cocked and released. That is two (2) actions. That is Double Action."

But it only does that if the slide has been cycled or partially cycled to pre-cock the striker. A small difference, but a significant one under certain circumstances.

If the primer doesn't go off you CAN'T simply pull the trigger again to cock and release the striker/firing pin. You pull the trigger the second time you get nothing.

OTOH, my Rohrbaugh will cock and release the hammer every time I pull the trigger. Doesn't matter if it's empty, a dud hard primer, whatever. The trigger does ALL OF the work on every trigger stroke.

John
 
So I and all the manufactures of Pre-set double action only pistols as well as the worthless BATFE are wrong?
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Technical accuracy and bureaucratic intellectual laziness are not the same thing, not as though the BATFE knows it, or even cares. The Glock was labeled "double action" because somebody didn't feel like coming up with a new category.
 
What about the manufactures? Why does Kel-Tec call their PF-9, P3AT and P32 “Double action only”? What about Para ordnance with their “Light Double Action.”? Ruger with their LCP?
:scrutiny:
 
What about the manufactures? Why does Kel-Tec call their PF-9, P3AT and P32 “Double action only”? What about Para ordnance with their “Light Double Action.”? Ruger with their LCP?
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Tyson can call a chicken a pterodactyl. It doesn't make it so.
 
"What about the manufactures?"

Their marketing departments are more concerned about earned revenue than the accuracy of terminology.
 
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...I have is to save up and buy myself a revolver.
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Buy yourself a nice S&W 617 in .22. It feels like the full size K frame it is, is accurate, and you can shoot it all day long for pennies. Just never touch the hammer with your thumb. :)
 
I am with Deaminator on the naming issue, relying on the strict technical definition of SA and DA. If the hammer or firing pin does not cock/retract and release with each pull of the trigger, then it is not a true DA. If we want to get really technical, a DA revolver is really a triple action, as squeezing the trigger cocks the hammer, turns the cylinder, then releases the hammer.

Technical accuracy and bureaucratic intellectual laziness are not the same thing, not as though the BATFE knows it, or even cares. The Glock was labeled "double action" because somebody didn't feel like coming up with a new category.
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True. Glock calls it "Safe Action", but that gives no clue as to the actual mechanical operation. I guess calling it "Partial DA" doesn't have much of a ring to it. Maybe someone can come up with something better.

Buy yourself a nice S&W 617 in .22. It feels like the full size K frame it is, is accurate, and you can shoot it all day long for pennies. Just never touch the hammer with your thumb.
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Either that or an older S&W Model 17 or 18 in 22 LR. They are pricey though ($500 and up these days). Then again, used H&R DA revolvers can be found for $150 or less, and though not as sweet as a S&W they are an excellent value.
 
Their point is, if the gun is EMPTY or the round doesn't fire, pulling the trigger again won't do anything. (regardless of the constant 'clicking' noises you hear wiht an empty Glock in the movies)

This nit has been picked to death, I think.
 
I have indeed fired pistols in a double action capacity, though mainly revolvers and the intial groupings were no where near as good as with SA auto pistols.

True, I might have given up a bit too easily and thought to myself 'to hell with this, why am I shooting this antiquated weapon system, it's not as good' or words to that effect. It seemed pointless (in my opinion) to actually make a conscious decision to go 'backwards' in terms of weapon technology, capacity and ease of use.
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I don't consider classic to equate to antiquated in terms of accuracy. I do all my revolver shooting in double action...granted, for longer shots (greater than 25 yards) I stage the trigger.

target.jpg

off hand at 15 yards, I pushed that eighth shot, but that wasn't the guns fault.

Give the double action revolver another chance, be patient, obtain and maintain sight alignment and FOCUS on the front sight while maintaining alignment. Don't just acknowledge the front sight is there, don't just glance at it in passing, but FOCUS hard on that front sight all the way through breaking the shot.

I miss my old 1911 I sold in the late 1980's for it's sweet SA pull, but I won't trade my revolvers for anything.
 
If the hammer or firing pin does not cock/retract and release with each pull of the trigger, then it is not a true DA.
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What do you think a Glock does?
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IF the striker has been "pre-cocked", it retracts it the rest of the way, then releases it.

What do you think a Glock does if the striker ISN'T "pre-cocked"? It's really easy to find out. Clear one, close the slide and pull the trigger. What happens when you try to pull the trigger AGAIN...?
 
Their point is, if the gun is EMPTY or the round doesn't fire, pulling the trigger again won't do anything. (regardless of the constant 'clicking' noises you hear wiht an empty Glock in the movies)
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That does NOT matter. Second strike capability has nothing to do with determining whether or not a pistols firing mechanism is double action. Double action is defined as when the trigger is pulled to the rear two (2) firing actions are taking place, cocking the hammer/striker and releasing it firing the weapon. It does not matter if it is a “Traditional” double action only like a Beretta 92D or a “Pre-set” double action only like a Glock. Double action is double action. There is a reason why when the Military wrote procurement contracts they specified that they want second strike capability even when they already specified double action. That is because not all pistols featuring double action firing mechanisms possess
a second strike feature.
 
That does NOT matter. Second strike capability has nothing to do with determining whether or not a pistols firing mechanism is double action.
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That's like saying, "The number of feet has nothing to do with determining whether an animal is a quadruped."

"Second strike" capability is INHERENT in a double action firearm.
 
"Second strike" capability is INHERENT in a double action firearm.
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I concur. DAO by definition means the trigger is the only way to cock the hammer and fire the pistol and will do so over and over again, and that the cycling action in no way suppliments cocking the hammer.


One problem we have is that we have more exotic action types than we have universally accepted names. Add to that the striker Versus hammer systems and we are a few terms short of being able to communicate with each other. It will come in time. Where's Mr Webster when we need him?
 
"That does NOT matter. Second strike capability has nothing to do with determining whether or not a pistols firing mechanism is double action. Double action is defined as when the trigger is pulled to the rear two (2) firing actions are taking place, cocking the hammer/striker and releasing it firing the weapon."

"cocking the hammer/striker "

That's what we keep saying. It's the essence of the DA definition. Pulling the trigger on a Glock does not cock the striker unless it has been pre-cocked by cycling or partially cycling the slide.

It's not a deal breaker and it's not worth getting worked up over. This is just a discussion of facts about guns, not an attack on your manhood. :)

If we can't split hairs sitting around talking about guns, well, there wouldn't be much need for a gun forum.

John
 
That is the very definition thereof
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The definition of double action is “When the trigger is pressed fully to the rear two (2) primary firing actions are taking place, cocking of the hammer/striker and releasing it.“ it does not matter HOW the firing mechanism achieves this task, all that matters is that it does.


I believe the problem you Gentlemen are having is that you refuse to accept that there are varies categories of double action only. There is the “Traditional” double action only such as the Beretta 92D, SIG DAK, HK LEM, revolvers, Etc. that you Gentlemen are arguing for, and Pre-set double action only like the Glock, S&W M&P, Kel-Tec PF-9, P3AT, P32, Para LDA, Etc. while they may have functional differences they share the fundamental principals of double action. It is much akin to rifles and shotguns. While they are very different, they are both categorized under the category of “Long arm.” because they share fundamental characteristics such as two hand operation, fired from the shoulder, Etc. So in closing, we must accept that no matter how different they may seem to the casual user, if they share the defining principals of function they fall under the wide reaching category of “Double Action.” I am sure that both of these types of double action only pistols and revolvers do, or will live side by side in peace in the comfort of all our safes.

:)
 
"There is the “Traditional” double action"

There you go. You got it. :) Double action. Period.

If it's pre-set it's not double action, something else took care of part of the double action. Even wikipedia says so, as much as I dislike wikipedia. Call it pre-set DA, modified DA, safe action DA, whatever, it's not as simple as saying it's DA.

"So in closing, we must accept"

No, we don't. Sorry. The devil is in the details. Words have meaning, etc.

John
 
I'm amazed to see people so caught up in esoteric semantics.
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As a famous oxycodone addict once said, "Words mean things."

If people are going to say things, they should say factually accurate, meaningful things. If you don't care if what you're saying is true, join the BATFE or get elected to Congress.
 
This is a far less important debate than calling chambers "cylinders"

Going back to the OP's intent, DAO solves a good many problems that SA creates.
 
"As a famous oxycodone addict once said, "Words mean things.""

You know, I vaguely remember taking a vast horde of hydrocodone for 3 months before and after a back surgery I had in 2003. As best I remember, after working my way up to 16 pills a day words had all sorts of meanings and they shifted around constantly. Even 2.5 days in the hospital on a morphine drip didn't mess me up as badly. How much did I hate the pills? I quit cold turkey 4 weeks after surgery. Five years later and I've never taken another one; and I still have most of a bottle of 70. I suppose I should flush them.


"When you press a Glock’s trigger from its center fully to the rear, how many Primary firing actions are taking place?"

If the striker isn't pre-loaded, nothing will happen. Zip. Nada.

John
 
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