Why didn't the FBI choose the .45 acp?

[Ughh]

Well like the title suggests, Why?

I was reading something about the .40 and it was saying that the FBI required specs were something like 155gr at around 980 fps.

But 185gr .45acps can also perform these specs too, at a larger caliber at that.

Any opinions? Thoughts?

 

[Wahoo95]

Maybe they like the idea that the could have a higher capacity in .40? I always thought the FBI specs were for 180gr bullets in .40?

 

[GunLvrNLearner]

This doesn't answer your q and i apologize but does anyone know the history of the FBI's pistol carry by caliber and were/are they supposed to use a glock,beretta or certain make?

 

[dfjaws]

I always thought it was the same reason the military/NATO went with the 115gr 9mm... shot vs. hit probability. I couldn't tell you where I saw it (I think it was somewhere on THR forums here) but I remember seeing the results of a study that determined that, "on average", the ratio of shots per hits was rather low. Being that .45acp pistols generally have a capacity of anywhere form 7-8 rounds (in a 1911), the 15 round (in a M9/92FS) 9mm was chosen. Makes sense, I guess. I'm guessing the FBI didn't want to go as small as 9mm, but still chose .40 for the same reasons.

Again, I'm not positive on all this but IIRC that's why.

 

[Kingofthehill]

They can't hit crap so they need more attempts

(relax, it was a joke)

 

[10pacesmike]

Lots of factors

Capacity, penetration, ammo technology at the time, recoil, etc. It all came from the Miami shooting. Proper ammunition would have prevented the entire ordeal.

 

[9mmepiphany]

one reason they changed from the 9mm was indeed the perceived shotcommings in penetration. that's why they went with the 10mm.

their dropping the 10mm had a number of causes (gun selection, power required) but the .45 was never considered at least partly because of the military's move away from that cartridge

 

[gc70]

Why didn't the FBI choose the .45 acp?

The FBI's SWAT and Hostage Rescue teams did choose the .45 ACP; the average agents got the .40 S&W.

 

[Manco]

Well like the title suggests, Why?

Aside from the issue of capacity, the FBI wants greater penetration in flesh, and .40 S&W is particularly good at that while still being able to reliably expand and penetrate hard barriers. They've also approved at least one 9mm load for agents who opt for that caliber. It's not that .45 ACP couldn't meet their requirements with careful load design, but it's less suited for it due to lower velocity at equal sectional density. What .45 ACP is really good at is making large diameter holes, which is preferred by many, but the FBI doesn't care as much about that.

I was reading something about the .40 and it was saying that the FBI required specs were something like 155gr at around 980 fps.

That's a rather weak .40 S&W load. The current FBI load is 180 grain Q4355, which replaced the original Ranger Bonded ammunition. Its muzzle velocity is either 1025 fps or 1070 fps depending on where you look.

But 185gr .45acps can also perform these specs too, at a larger caliber at that.

185 grain .45 ACP will not penetrate like a similar .40 S&W load if it behaves as a larger caliber, and the FBI favors penetration over wound channel diameter. From their point of view, .40 S&W does anything .45 ACP can do, sometimes even better, and as mentioned earlier allows for greater capacity. Other agencies and individuals may have different requirements that would favor .45 ACP.

The FBI's SWAT and Hostage Rescue teams did choose the .45 ACP; the average agents got the .40 S&W.

In this case, different people selected different ammo for their own reasons.

 

[Runningman]

was reading something about the .40 and it was saying that the FBI required specs were something like 155gr at around 980 fps.

Looks like FBI is using 180 grain loads to me. "Winchester's enhanced .40 S&W service ammunition is a 180-grain, bonded jacketed hollow point round and was selected over all other rounds that were tested". Source http://www.apbweb.com/corporate-spotlight-products-menu-40/1291-winchester-wins-fbi-40-saw-ammunition-contract.html

As for why didn't the FBI choose the 45 ACP? My guess is they found the Glock 23 (their standard issue weapon for many years now) fit their overall needs in a platform and cartridge the best. I mean look at the choices in a 45 ACP. The Glock 21 has a large grip by anyones standards. They are not for everyone. My understanding is an agent is allowed to carry a Glock 27 as a back up. I would much rater carry a G27 over a G30 as a backup myself.

 

[dispatch]

Because the guys that determine the specs aren't the guys that have to use them. It is the government don't ya know.

 

[Deaf Smith]

First guys you have to remember that before the Glock 23, the FBI used the Smith 10mm. AND THAT GUN WAS HEAVY! I mean really heavy.

These agents have to carry that gun every day and heavy guns ain't fun.

Plus big gripped guns are hard to shoot by small handed people (as the Army found out with the M9.. hence the M11.)

So they wanted .45 stopping power, but better magazine capacity, lighter weight, better reliability, and ability for every Agent to grip it well. And that is what the Glock 23 was all about.

 

[HorseSoldier]

Plus big gripped guns are hard to shoot by small handed people (as the Army found out with the M9.. hence the M11.)

M11 wasn't procured for small-handed folks, but for those jobs where a smaller/more concealable pistol was preferred. At least in the Army, that's a very limited bunch -- CID and Counter Intel guys are about the only ones I can think of off the top of my head.

 

[The Lone Haranguer]

Back in the late 1980s, after a shootout in which a 9mm allegedly failed to penetrate deeply enough, the FBI desired a load that would penetrate 12 inches of ballistic gelatin after first having passed through heavy clothing or intervening barriers, including auto windshield glass. Their testing indicated that the 10mm Auto (.40 caliber), downloaded to ~980 fps, achieved this goal, performing better than the .45. This later developed into the .40 S&W, which achieved the same performance without requiring a large frame gun.

 

[jmr40]

The FBI liked the Smith & Wesson 10mm's they bought but some agents could not handle the power and some could not handle the larger grips of the 10mm. The reduced loadings took care of the too powerful problem but did not address the grip size problem.

A 45 would have been a good choice, except the grip size is the same as the 10mm. When they found they could shorten the 10mm cartridge and fit it into a 9mm size gun the 40 was the result.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Capacity, penetration, ammo technology at the time, recoil, etc. It all came from the Miami shooting. Proper ammunition would have prevented the entire ordeal.

Well, when you put your gun on the seat of the car, and it slides off when you stop, and you're rooting around the floorboards trying to find it while the shooting is going on, it doesn't much matter what caliber you're using.

 

[The Lone Haranguer]

A lot more went wrong there than just ammunition failure.

 

[Biggums]

I own a SA HRT FBI issue gun and love it. They still issue them to HRT folks as far as I know. Its called the Springfield Armory Professional.

 

[Strahley]

Capacity, penetration, ammo technology at the time, recoil, etc. It all came from the Miami shooting. Proper ammunition would have prevented the entire ordeal.

Good guys with long guns would have been the correct answer, not a better handgun round

 

[mljdeckard]

When they tested the 10mm, they realized that the case capacity was so big, they could download it and still get more penetration and energy than a 9mm or a .45, so they did. Then another genius asked; "If you're just downloading it anyway, why are you using a shell casing so big that it won't fit in existing frames?" They shortened it and that became the .40 S&W.

While I prefer the .45, federal agents are more likely to be doing things that involve shooting into vehicles or other tough targets than I am. They are also more likely to be in prolonged gunfights which benefit from higher capacity than I will. This is a good illustration of how LE, military, and civilians have different needs and priorities, and their gear and training will differ.

 

[MTS840]

This might help:

http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi_10mm_notes.pdf

 

[Manco]

A lot more went wrong there than just ammunition failure.

Regarding the 1986 Miami shootout, most definitely, but it looks as though they found at least one instance where deeper penetration might have incapacitated one of the perps much more quickly, if not almost instantly. The 115 grain 9mm Winchester Silvertip in question didn't quite penetrate the 12" or so necessary to reach the perp's heart, stopping just short. And although it was 158 grain .38 Special+P rounds that ultimately ended the gunfight, some of the shots just barely penetrated enough while others did not. This apparently made FBI analysts look for more ways in which a bullet that expands as it was designed to (or was just plain lacking in penetration) could fail to penetrate deeply enough to reach vital tissues. While it's impossible to really predict what would have happened, all else being the same, had they used their current duty ammunition, which penetrates 19" through cloth, the outcome of this specific shootout might have been significantly improved.

Another conclusion they reached was that revolvers, which many of the agents carried, did not have the necessary capacity for incidents such as this one, as unusually extreme as it was. One other issue they raised was maintaining lethality after penetrating hard barriers, which modern bullet designs have finally addressed with regard to hollow-points (old-fashioned hard-cast bullets would be ideal, but the FBI wants hollow-points that can do it all). Obviously when penetration and capacity are one's main requirements, .45 ACP is at a disadvantage in comparison to smaller, though not necessarily less powerful, calibers such as .40 S&W and 9mm.

 

[Mad Magyar]

They can't hit crap so they need more attempts

(relax, it was a joke)

BINGO! It's not a joke....but reality....The same reason the military and most major police agencies don't use the .45acp anymore.
Massad Ayoob has written extensively over the years about failure to qualify in LE agencies, and especially the military in attempting to use the .45acp. Keep in mind that the vast majority of candidates in LE or the military have little or no experience with firearms....Just passing on another point of view to consider...Believe me, it has nothing to do with cost, penetration, rd count and other ballistic data...

 

[Manco]

This might help:

http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi_10mm_notes.pdf

It's interesting how .45 ACP tends to expand more and penetrate less these days, while heavy 147 grain 9mm penetrates more now.

 

[Full Metal Jacket]

the 40 has higher capacity and excellent stopping power. period. the feds deal with people who have full auto weapons, and worse, probably more often than street cops.

they're still emotionally traumatized by the miami shootout.