Why didn't the FBI choose the .45 acp?
- Thread starter Ughh
- Start date
- Status
Yes, like I said it does give a better impression of their commitment to improvement. Was it truly, physically necessary? Probably not, although bullet technology was not where it is today (you usually either got gross overpenetration or huge expansion like with the original Silvertip), and 10mm gave them more flexibility to design new loads later if the need ever arose.
Or maybe they eventually went with .40 S&W because of grip size issues, having been convinced that a lighter, shorter 10mm had enough potential (and helps make them look like they're going all out to fix their issues, as well as focusing people's attention on hardware rather than their mistakes, yes).
The original Silvertip design heavily emphasized expansion over penetration (it's hardly unique in this regard even today), and I don't believe that it would even meet today's 12" minimum, which I cannot stress enough is an absolute, rock-bottom, almost-sucks minimum rather than an ideal amount for human-sized targets (at least according to the FBI's conclusions after the shootout).
Those often didn't expand at all, while more aggressively designed hollow-points tended to expand too much. Nowadays, bullet performance is more consistent and can therefore be tailored more to a customer's requirements. Even the FBI now approves at least one 9mm load for agents who opt for a 9mm pistol. I'm not sure which load this is because everybody talks about their .40 S&W load, Q4355, which eventually replaced the old 180 grain Ranger Bonded load (RA40B) and also became the civilian 180 grain PDX1 load (S40SWPDB1). I wouldn't be surprised if it were one (or both) of the Ranger Bonded loads in 9mm (RA9B) or 9mm+P (RA9BAB), though, as both are controlled-expansion, high-penetration loads just like Q4355/RA40B.
That would be news to me.
I think it's usually about maximizing the total wounding potential of a bullet in terms of the volume of flesh damaged, which is accomplished by keeping the bullet inside the target. Some people also believe that "dumping energy" is where it's at, or they really just mean the same thing. What the FBI discovered was that even if a bullet uses all of its energy to wound, it's not maximizing its chances of hitting something--anything--vital if it can't penetrate all the way through from virtually every angle. If you think about this for a moment, each bullet that hits will take a certain path through the body, and the deeper it penetrates the greater its odds of hitting something vital. Others might argue that greater expansion does the same thing, and to a smaller extent it does, but the theory is that you've got to balance it with sufficient penetration to truly maximize a bullet's performance.
On that topic, some only visualize frontal, perpendicular COM hits and say that 12" is more than enough because few people, even fat dudes, are much thicker than that, but in actual gunfights bullets can and have hit from many different angles, and can encounter hard barriers, including bone. The FBI estimated that 18" of penetration is pretty much ideal, being enough to fully penetrate people reliably (and often overpenetrate, that's true), and not so much that it overpenetrates every time while sacrificing expansion. None of us have to agree with their findings and opinions, but at the same time nobody said that 12" was ideal--it's simply the minimum standard that most ammunition manufacturers try to meet while trying to wow their customers, including law enforcement, with how large a diameter their bullets can expand to (in other words, marketing). The FBI said that 12" is fair, but 18" is better.
It's the same bullet used in the 180 grain PDX1, although I'm unsure whether one load is a bit hotter than the other. The lowest published figure for velocity is 1025 fps (4" barrel), which gives it 420 foot-pounds of energy. Average penetration into ballistic gel through "heavy cloth" (representing clothing) is 19" with expansion to a diameter of 0.59". Nearly 50% expansion with that much penetration is good performance, I think, which is why I use this load myself for home defense (or am prepared to use it if necessary, anyway
).It definitely depends on the person, however, as .40 S&W doesn't slow me down over 9mm--both momentarily move the sights off target, and the "snappiness" of .40 S&W that people are always complaining about actually helps me get back on target faster than I've done with .45 ACP, for example. Up to this point, I've always allowed guns to move in response to recoil and worked with it rather than against it, but on my next trip to the range I'll try to see what happens when I resist recoil as hard as I can (locked arms, death grip, opposing force--the works).
Great, you just made me spit up into my bowl of Fruity Pebbles cereal, and now I've got milk up my nose.
.45 ACP doesn't feel as harsh as .40 S&W, but for whatever reason I can shoot the latter slightly faster (with accuracy, that is). Maybe it's just because I've had so much more practice with it, or maybe it's something else.
Last edited:
...meanwhile...what any two Texas Rangers of the 1920s could handle, we now need five Helicopters, lots of Road Blocks, bussloads of 'swat', and swarming bunches of ballistics vest wearing G-Men to usually flub nicely enough for anyone's taste.
So sure...another fifty million for them to have new whizzbang bullets....yuppers, that oughta do 'er!
Oye...
Eeeeeeeeeesh...
Sad..!
So sure...another fifty million for them to have new whizzbang bullets....yuppers, that oughta do 'er!
Oye...
Eeeeeeeeeesh...
Sad..!
Guns and more
member
- Joined
- May 6, 2008
- Messages
- 1,929
Don't assume that FBI/ Military/ SWAT pick something because it's the best tool for the job.
There are often political considerations that don't apply to you.
There are often political considerations that don't apply to you.
10pacesmike
Member
- Joined
- Sep 24, 2007
- Messages
- 41
Sigh
I've been quoted numerous times in this thread, specifically my comment regarding, "proper ammunition would have prevented the entire ordeal."
My statement didn't refer to the entirety of the engagement, simply the perceived shortfalls of the pistol caliber.
The performance of their ammunition was not the most significant problem with the engagement.
I've been quoted numerous times in this thread, specifically my comment regarding, "proper ammunition would have prevented the entire ordeal."
My statement didn't refer to the entirety of the engagement, simply the perceived shortfalls of the pistol caliber.
The performance of their ammunition was not the most significant problem with the engagement.
I'm starting to think that maybe there is no "one caliber fits all" option. That's why I think that LE agencies that allow officers to choose what caliber they want (9mm and above) and what gun they want (from a generous approved list) have come to the best solution. This method allows officers to choose the caliber and pistol that works the best for them, and therefore their performance increases drastically.
Ben86, yeah, with current defense/duty oriented ammunition all the service calibers are pretty much the same, some pack a little more speed, others a little more weight, but they all reliably function the way they were intended much more often than not, so all it really takes is picking a load that works.
mordechaianiliewicz
Member
.40 is the best of both worlds?
Ughh
Member
I think in light of everything said thus far and if you can only pick one and only one type of caliber from the three mainstream semi-autos cartridges, one can easily argue that the .40 S&W is the best in terms of this versatility.
Manco mentioned the FBI approved of one particular 9mm load in post #77. So then the FBI now uses all 3 mainstream cartridges (9mm, .40 S&W, .45 acp)??
I assume the .40 S&W is their all-around duty cartridge in the G22, and the .45 acp is in the kimber 1911s for the HRTeams. What's the 9mm in and who uses it??
Manco mentioned the FBI approved of one particular 9mm load in post #77. So then the FBI now uses all 3 mainstream cartridges (9mm, .40 S&W, .45 acp)??
I assume the .40 S&W is their all-around duty cartridge in the G22, and the .45 acp is in the kimber 1911s for the HRTeams. What's the 9mm in and who uses it??
Good discussion. In addition to hte info above a few points.
Group of female agents sued the FBI after having issues with the larger gripped pistols as there scores fell or they failed quals. That is one reason a 9MM could be requested, IIRC the settlement let them shoot K frames as a substitute gun.
- 10MM catridge was considered "powerful" and touted as a fight stopper that was a logical heir to the .41 Mag
Issued 1076 gun had a large grip (see lawsuit above) and also was recalled from service. FBI requested a modified trigger group, modification caused weapon to lock up, fail to fire, or be unloaded. P226 was substituted as issue weapon.
- IMHO getting a round that was more recoil and size friendly fixed a couple of problems, some of which aren't tactical.
Full Metal Jacket
member
there's too much quoting in this thread
leadcounsel
member
Some ideas -
Cover fire? Smaller (female) agents? Less expensive to train with 9mm? (Think about it, if your budget is X and you need to fire 1,000,000 rounds per year for training, 9mm is half the expense. How often do agents REALLY need to fire their guns? And most people agree shot placement is more important than caliber. So a com hit with a 9mm is better than a arm hit with a .45, and an arm hit with a 9mm is better than a miss with a .45...
Not sure about any of this, just my thinking...
Cover fire? Smaller (female) agents? Less expensive to train with 9mm? (Think about it, if your budget is X and you need to fire 1,000,000 rounds per year for training, 9mm is half the expense. How often do agents REALLY need to fire their guns? And most people agree shot placement is more important than caliber. So a com hit with a 9mm is better than a arm hit with a .45, and an arm hit with a 9mm is better than a miss with a .45...
Not sure about any of this, just my thinking...
That's pretty much the same conclusion I arrived at when selecting among calibers, although they're all fairly close. Thus far, .40 S&W also appears to have good "street credibility," and by that I mean the anecdotal endorsement of LEOs as opposed to gang members, although it seems to have the latter, too, for what it's worth.
That said, there is just not that much difference between the main service calibers.Right, and here's the main reference I used (originally from memory), a press release from Winchester:
http://www.policeone.com/police-pro...ards-Second-Ammunition-Contract-to-Winchester
So it's the 147 grain 9mm standard pressure load that the FBI uses, which expands to very nearly the same absolute diameter as the .40 S&W load (0.58" versus 0.59") but penetrates 3.2" less (15.8" versus 19"). Interestingly, the 124 grain 9mm+P load actually performs more like the main 180 .40 S&W load in ballistic gel through simulated clothing (i.e. less expansion, more penetration), but is inferior to either of the others in barrier penetration, which is higher on the FBI's priority list than it probably is on those of most people.
They're hardly inflexible when it comes to accommodating different people, as indicated in the following publication:
http://www.fbi.gov/publications/leb/2005/jan2005/jan2005.htm
Each of these calibers have some advantages over the others, and may be chosen for individual or departmental reasons. Generally, .40 S&W and 9mm are options for special agents, while the tactical teams use .45 ACP in their handguns. Why the latter is the case, I don't really know. First of all, it's handled by a different department (I would think), and in a tactical sense, handguns are backup weapons used in the context of a team that applies overwhelming force, whereas handguns are the primary weapons of special agents who may potentially find themselves alone, outnumbered, or outgunned, and therefore in need of greater round capacity. Maybe the tactical guys are traditionalists or use FMJ ammo for some reason (like they probably do in their SMGs for feeding reliability), which in the view of most people would favor larger rounds. Your guess is as good as mine.
As for choosing 9mm, some agents may shoot significantly better with it than .40 S&W, or may prefer to have an extra couple of rounds instead of a few more inches of penetration.
Glocks, SIGs, or whatever else is approved--I don't know, but I bet that they're more flexible than we might think as long as the weapons and ammo meet their current standards.
there's too much quoting in this thread
What makes you think that?
Last edited:
oneounceload
member
Maybe, like a lot of LEO agencies, they didn't want their agents carrying "cocked and locked".......maybe
Not all handguns chambered in .45 ACP are single-action-only, if that's what you're implying.
- Status
