Why do "experts" not like the 9mm 147 grain jhp or the 9mm caliber

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Only one outraged cry of Necropost and then the topic sails on?

Personally I arry a 9x19mm, it's what I've been trained with. I used to carry a .45ACP, but the smaller, lighter and just as easy to shoot yet easy to conceal 9x19mm which the goverment paid for me to learn to use, made me switch.

Personally I go for the 124 ish grain high velocity rounds. Why? If I want heavy I'll carry my 1911 with 185grain +p's.

The advantage the 9x19mm has is capacity and velocity. I'll take as much of both as I can get if I'm carrying one thanks.

PS I have no scientific reason, only I can shoot 124 grains well.

KBK
 
Modern 147gr Rounds are Excellent.

Bullet technology has improved a lot. There are several absolutely Great 147gr stoppers. Personally I favor the Federal Tactical LE HST 147gr, the Federal Tactical LE HST 147gr +P and the Winchester 147gr Bonded LE. These rounds would definitely get the job done:evil: Also you cannot ignore Speer LE 147gr. The Federal 147gr +P with the increased velocity is my favorite.

http://www.winchester.com/lawenforcement/testing/testing.aspx

http://le.atk.com/general/federalproducts/pistol/default.aspx


Everyone have a Safe and Happy Independence Day!
The Best to All!

Frank
 
9mmfan

through all the posts here, you got your answer

some American men are slaves to their ego:banghead:...they would have you believe that the .45 they carry is a handheld shotgun while your 9 is a slingshot

1-shot-stops are for hollywood (unless you hit the head/cns)...and you can do that with a .32...but even recently i've seen posts where some guys still think a .45 will knock someone over:confused:

"uhg..me big man..me control big gun recoil"

great for you !...but if we had laser guns with no recoil, would you still feel underpowered because it didn't "kick"
 
With the bullet makers improving JHPs - seems we have a new gen.
every 5 or so years, the JHP Du Jour trades places amongst
manufactureres.

Would the 147 gr. JHPs be static since they first came out ?

That was rhetorical.

I have a CZ 75B with about 500 rds of an assortment of FMJ
& JHPs - I'm happy with the WIn. 147 gr. JHPs from Wal Mart as
they are quieter, and easier to shoot but then the 9mm is a secondary
HD/SD option for me. I prefer the 1911 .45 ACP with 200 gr. JHPs

Use what you can shoot best

Randall
 
147 JHP 9mm.

All the guys still lost in the old Miami shootout days are the same . They haven't read modern performance test on the latest loads in the 147JHPs . Some of them have better penetration and expand just as large or larger than the 124 and115 JHPs. in Plus P or Plus P+ rounds.
 
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I think that far too much is made of the alleged "issues" that the 9mm 147 gr. JHP is purported to have had. At the risk engaging in cliche', put the bullet where it needs to go and keep shooting until the threat is neutralized.

"Way back" in 1991, when these "issues" were at their height, in an article in the Journal of the International Wound Ballistics Association (Winter, 1991), Eugene J. Wolberg, the San Diego Police Crime Laboratory's Senior Firearms Criminalogist, presented the data collected from 28 human autopsies that involved shootings using the Winchester 9mm 147 gr. JHP and presented evidence supporting a strong correlation with results obtained by testing this ammunition in calibrated ordinance (Knox) gelatin.

I have provided the documentary link below:

http://www.btammolabs.com/fackler/winchester_9mm.pdf

The statistical averages for expansion, retained weight and penetration depths were neither calculated nor provided for the entire sample (n=28) in the article so I determined them and have provided them below:

Average Expansion: .54064" (1.5251x caliber)
Average Retained Weight: 139.107 gr. (~94.631%)
Average Depth of Penetration: 13.17857"

Given the "average" performance of the Winchester 9mm 147 gr. JHP in that it appears to expand regularly to 1.5x caliber and retain ~95% of its weight while penetrating 13+ inches in actual shootings (not calibrated gelatin), I'd have to say that it is excellent CCW/SD ammunition considering it's "Economy Value" status and is a bargain, IMNSHO. :D

I would add that it matches closely, another premium SD round that I hold in very high regard, the Hornady 147 gr. XTP "CQ" JHP, (it is my "carry ammunition" in my Glock 17) which also expands to ~1.5x caliber, penetrates 14+ inches and retains ~95-99% of its weight.

Sufficiently impressed, I have laid in a rather "healthy supply" of the Winchester USA 9mm 147 gr. JHP as my secondary, "go-to" CCW/SD ammunition in light of it's similar performance to my favorite CCW/SD ammunition, the Hornady 9mm 147 gr. XTP JHP.
 
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The 147grn 9mm behaves only slightly better than the 158 grn RNL 38 spl, which isn't a good stopper. Often, the hollowpoint cavity will fill up with material that the bullet passes through first and basically becomes a non expanding projectile. Of course, one may well wonder if any bullet configuration is going to be a good stopper if you don't get good hits. I remember someone telling me once that the FBI shootout in Miami would have gone better if the agents had been armed with FMJs instead of silvertips because the FMJs would have penetrated all the way to the heart whereas the slivertips expansion did not.
As far as the military guys bad mouthing the .38 special, remember the military version of the .38 spl is an anemic 130 grn FMJ with very poor wounding characteristics. It's about the worst possible .38 spl for self defense.
 
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Phil Degraves said:
The 147grn 9mm behaves only slightly better than the 158 grn RNL 38 spl, which isn't a good stopper. Often, the hollowpoint cavity will fill up with material that the bullet passes through first and basically becomes a non expanding projectile. Of course, one may well wonder if any bullet configuration is going to be a good stopper if you don't get good hits. I remember someone telling me once that the FBI shootout in Miami would have gone better if the agents had been armed with FMJs instead of silvertips because the FMJs would have penetrated all the way to the heart whereas the slivertips expansion did not.
As far as the military guys bad mouthing the .38 special, remember the military version of the .38 spl is an anemic 130 grn FMJ with very poor wounding characteristics. It's about the worst possible .38 spl for self defense.
Click to expand...

Well, Phil, it would seem that there are at least 28 folks formerly of the greater Metropolitan San Diego area that would disagree with you on that very premise, (marked in bold above) if not for the fact that they have shuffled off this "mortal coil" for greater things.

I would surmise that not all of these 28 souls were "nekkid as a jaybird" when they met their respective demise, so it would appear that the hollowpoint cavities do not fill up with material and become a non-expanding projectile afterall. Average expansion for all 28 shootings was 0.5406" (or slightly more than 1.5x caliber) and the population (n) appears to be a statistically valid one.

Of course, this did happen on the West Coast, so who knows? Maybe all the documented shootings occurred in an ultra-liberal nudist colony run jointly by Nancy Pelosi and Barack Obama. Ewww....:barf:

Did you check the link and read the article that I provided for the purpose of substantiating my post? It makes, by way of scientifically collected and presented data, a most compelling "counter-argument" to all of the assertions you make above and uses data obtained from real-life shootings that seem to support the countering argument that begs to be made in response to your assertions.

Regards,
 
I have a question. How many folks were shot during that same period of time with those same 147's to get the subjects for the 28 autopsies? The point being that that we only know that 28 people were killed, not how many were shot and not stopped/killed. The ratio of stopped/not-stopped would be telling.

John
 
JohnBT: said:
I have a question. How many folks were shot during that same period of time with those same 147's to get the subjects for the 28 autopsies? The point being that that we only know that 28 people were killed, not how many were shot and not stopped/killed. The ratio of stopped/not-stopped would be telling.
Click to expand...

I agree that such a ratio would be an extremely interesting aspect to consider and I look forward to what your research on this matter reveals.

I trust that you will keep us all apprised of what you discover as result of your research on this intriguing subject matter.
 
When I know there is a chance no matter how slim, that I may need a weapon, I carry a G30,. When I know there is almost no chance of anything bad happening, I carry a PF-9 . Since nothing bad is going to happen I take a spare clip in my fanny -pac, because in Fl, it's too darn hot to carry any other way, "unless your working". 15 years ago, I realized that anyone with a fanny pac, under the age of 70, was probablly carrying a gun. There are a lot of fanny pacs. The clip in my keltek is 115 grain, the 2nd clip is 147, I guesss I figured if the 115 didn't seem to be working, I could try the 147. As far as droping someone, that guy David, did with a rock. I think it's all dependant on who it is, how big and determined they are, and how good a shot you are when someone is shooting back. If you shoot him in the head or the heart, does it really matter which bullitt you use. Maybe a little, or we would all carry 22's. That's what my uncle Mike used to tell me, he was a Marine, who passed on last year. That freaki'n altizhmers, got him, got him good, he used to tell me, "son if you can hit what your aiming at, then carry a 22", then he would tell me about the time they went up to Alaska for Bear, or Moose, 50+ year old guys jumping out of planes in alaska. He asked the Guide what he used on a Moose, and the guide pointed to his 22 caliber rifle, "my uncle could tell a story", and did as often as possible" he and my other uncles had all kinds of High powered rifles, with scopes, and the guide had a 22. He said , son how the heck do you shoot something that size with a 22?, the guide said I sneak up on him and shoot him in the ear. Uncle Mike lived every day to the fullest. Passed on at 82
 
I agree that such a ratio would be an extremely interesting aspect to consider and I look forward to what your research on this matter reveals.

I trust that you will keep us all apprised of what you discover as result of your research on this intriguing subject matter.
____________________

My research? You're the one saying that 28 autopsies is statistically significant without knowing if it was 28 killed out of 29 people shot or 28 killed out of 999 shot.

John
 
JohnBT: said:
I agree that such a ratio would be an extremely interesting aspect to consider and I look forward to what your research on this matter reveals.

I trust that you will keep us all apprised of what you discover as result of your research on this intriguing subject matter.
____________________

My research? You're the one saying that 28 autopsies is statistically significant without knowing if it was 28 killed out of 29 people shot or 28 killed out of 999 shot.
Click to expand...

BZZZZZZT !!!

Wrong answer, John! But, thanks for playing!



JohnBT: said:
You're the one saying that 28 autopsies is statistically significant without knowing if it was 28 killed out of 29 people shot or 28 killed out of 999 shot.
Click to expand...

I said nothing of the sort.






First of all, I never used the term "statistcally significant". The term that I used was "statistically valid" and I was referring the sample population (n) that Wolberg used to assess the performance of the particular ammunition in question. I have no idea where you came up with the number 999 as that was not the sample size in Mr. Wolberg's article and I never indicated that I was doing any sort of research. If you have a problem with the methodology employed in the Wolberg article, I suggest that you take it up with him so that he may benefit from the enlightenment that you can provide him.

Judging from your remarks, I gather that you didn't read the article from the link that I provided, did you, John?

Second, You asked a question:

JohnBT: said:
I have a question. How many folks were shot during that same period of time with those same 147's to get the subjects for the 28 autopsies?
Click to expand...

If you ask a question and are interested in finding the answer to that question and since you clearly have access to the very same Internet that I do, you are therefore just as capable of researching for yourself the answer to the question that you posed.

I am neither compelled to nor responsible for answering or researching your speculative line of questions. Perhaps it is that you are just too lazy and unmotivated to do something for yourself?

Certainly you didn't expect me to do all the research to the question that you posed above and hand the answer to you, did you?

For shame, John, for shame.... :(
 
Because these so-called "experts" are anything but. Where are you reading, anyway? I think some of these experts are pushing something newfangled for sale, or think that "energy" is what kills.
 
PremiumSauces,

I provided the link to Wolberg's article (1991) so that everyone can see for themselves the data to which I refer. It is clear that he is employing the scientific method and that in and of itself speaks volumes to me for his expertise.

Due to the time frame that we are talking about (about 17 years) here, I sincerely doubt that anyone is pushing anything that could be even remotely considered "new-fangled" by any stretch of the imagination unless you believe the Winchester USA 147 gr. JHP (aka: Winchester White Box) to be "cutting edge" ammunition which I can assure you, it ain't, as it has been around for quite a long time.

It does not appear that E. Wolberg is suggesting that any mechanism or causal factor can, or even should, be implied from the data he provides in the article. His research simply provides that measurements of the bullets recovered at autopsy from 28 subjects and indicates a strong correlation between the data presented and results that can be obtained for this particular ammunition when it is tested in calibrated 10% ordinance gelatin.

Here is the link to the article that I make reference to (in post #84) if you missed it or are having a hard time locating it:

http://www.btammolabs.com/fackler/winchester_9mm.pdf

Give it a read. It is interesting stuff.

Regards,
 
" I have no idea where you came up with the number 999 as that was not the sample size in Mr. Wolberg's article"

I was pointing out that Mr. Wolberg's sample size was not very large by using a large number I picked out of thin air. Make it 1,000 or 10,000 if you like.

"It is clear that he is employing the scientific method"

His sample size was not only too small, it was, as I pointed out in an earlier post, composed of only those who expired and not of all those who were shot with the round in question. That's where my 999 came in. What if there were nearly 1,000 others shot with that round who did not expire? What if their wounds could somehow be measured and those measurements showed variable or downright lousy penetration, expansion, etc.

I don't think he was using good science at all.

Let me use an auto racing example. Look at the make of the cars that finish a race. If half of them are Fords does that prove that Fords were the most reliable cars in the race? It does if all the Fords that started the race finished it. It doesn't if most of the cars starting were Fords and those Fords that finished were only a small percentage (IOW, let's say 75% of the Fords DNF.) It's all about the ratio; just like it is when it comes to how many were shot and how many of the total shot were stopped/killed.

It's been a long time, but I had very good science and statistics professors.

His numbers certainly show that the round worked in the cases cited and that it could be a good one. Without much more information it is impossible to draw any conclusions about how often the round will work. His 28 cases could represent the only successful outcomes.

John
 
Oh look another 9mm vs .45 thread.

If you are in love with 9mm or .45 get on with your bad self. More power to you.

But why do people spend so much energy trying to convince me that what I am carrying is all wrong? Shoot & carry what you are comfrotable with and leave me out of it.

If you love .45ACP fine. If you love 9mm fine.
Signed,

.40S&W Fan
 
Believing something leaves only 2 possibilities.

1. Your right.
2. Your deceived

I liked my M-60, as a crew cheif/doorgunner. My bugout gun I carried along was an M-79 with 2 bandos of a variety of projectiles. "Nails" were good. My .45 was on my side as a last resort. A 9mm would hve been as good.
 
just wondering how many bad guys did Mas Ayoob realy kill in self defense? he always used a .45 so how can he know if the 147gr bullet is effective in stopping a Killer on PCP? he needs to collect the facts from real officers that were in the line of fire and had to put down a bad guy ... those are the ones you get the real facts from not MASSAD AYOOB ..

Ayoob might be an expert marksman but we need real facts that will be help us choose an effective bullet when we need to defend our precious lives someday...I collected some facts and the 147gr standard loads for 9mm is proven effective on the streets from a 4 inch barrel or longer.
 
Use what you feel confident with. Shoot until the threat is stopped. Reload if necessary. Ah, hell, reload ANYWAY. And look around for other potential threats!
 
IMO, a lot of the talk about the ineffectivness of the 147 gr. 9mm stems from people reading and then regurgitating the old article by "Anonymous" prefaced by Chuck Hawks (and a few other sources from a few years back).

Info. like that is old stuff in these fast changing self defense ammo times IMO.

Catch up on the times and use a "modern" 9mm projectile (like HST, DPX, or a number of others) in anything from 115gr. to 147 gr. and you'll do fine if 9mm is your choice of caliber.

Reliable expansion of hollow points with penetration to 12" or so of ballistic gel. - in a calliber (and/or powder charge level) that you personally can shoot well and repeat the hits quickly with - and be comfortable doing so (so you don't build flinches) is the name of the game.

Lots to choose from out there starting at about 9mm up to .45 or so and 115gr. up to 230gr. or so. That definately includes a nice modern 147 gr. hollow point IMO.

I wouldn't shoot a dog with a solid though - unless it was all that was available - and then I'd want it to be a .45 caliber IMO.
 
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