Why I no longer carry .380

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See gunny, if guy 1 would have had a 9mm instead of 380 the bullet would have exited guy 3 and hit his intended target guy 2. (lol, totally being facetious)
What I would like to know is was the 380 fmj? Also I would imagine almost point blank range as big boy was probably flinching back from the shoulder shot and stepped in front of buddy with 380 as he retaliated. Just guessing as those details aren't given.

Just my stance, I don't want to be limited to fmj to get desired penetration which seems to be the standard for 380 carry and my own limited testing send to back that. Just my preference. Like I said earlier, I still wouldn't want to be shot by one.
 
See gunny, if guy 1 would have had a 9mm instead of 380 the bullet would have exited guy 3 and hit his intended target guy 2. (lol, totally being facetious)
What I would like to know is was the 380 fmj? Also I would imagine almost point blank range as big boy was probably flinching back from the shoulder shot and stepped in front of buddy with 380 as he retaliated. Just guessing as those details aren't given.

Just my stance, I don't want to be limited to fmj to get desired penetration which seems to be the standard for 380 carry and my own limited testing send to back that. Just my preference. Like I said earlier, I still wouldn't want to be shot by one.
I don’t remember what type of bullet was used. We caught guy #1 later that night. He had already gotten rid of the gun.
 
What was the answer to "What is wet pack?"
Wet newspaper. Usually shredded and molded into blocks, wrapped into plastic (Saran wrap) or put into bottles.

Edit : A lot of YouTube shooters who are poor use it as a form of ballistic gel.

For instance ...
 
On the extreme;y rare ocassions when I feel the need for a miniature gun, I carry a Ruger LC9S Pro, loaded with Winchester 147 grain non- plus P Ranger "T" series.

For normal carry, a SIG P226 with the same ammo in the +P version.

If I carried a .380, I would carry the XTP and practice "magazine dump/tac reload" right out of the holster.
 
Traditionally wet pack is a stack of telephone books soaked in water then generally taped together back to back them put in box or tub. I prefer using 2 liters or 64 oz juice containers. I soak the same kind of magazine and stuff into bottle. 1 magazine worth of material without the spines per bottle. The bottles ensure the wet pack doesn't dry out. The original way needs to be shot fairly quickly due to drying out.
 
Let's do the stats....

If you are attacked and produce a handgun, 93% of the time your attacker will flee. By and large, they are looking for an easy target, not a fair fight.

So only 7% of the time does your cartridge matter.

For purposes of discussion, guess that a 380 with an XTP bullet will dissuade your attacker 80% of the times you fire it. Pick another number if it suits you and alter the math that follows accordingly.

Given all of that, with a 380, your defense will fail about .07 x .80 = .56% of the time.

Now add to these stats the independent studies which have shown criminals guns are unloaded,
defective, downright broken, or loaded with the wrong ammo, over 50% of the time, and I'd have to say
having any gun which is clean, lubricated, properly loaded, and in good working order will, unless you
live in Beirut, put you pretty far ahead of the power curve.

But I have to agree that ballistics analysis needs comparative tests with other calibers, in order to
ground it in overall feasibility. IMO they are only a standard for overall comparison, not some
gold standard of defense reliability.
 
Wet pack is just a medium for testing the expansion of a particular bullet and gives you a rough idea of how much a bullet will penetrate and expand. Usually the people who have a problem with it prefer gel. The thing is that gel doesn't duplicate human organs or the elasticity of human skin either.

The manufacturers will tell you that. Is gel more consistent than wet pack if mixed correctly? Sure, by far.

Wet pack just gives a rough idea of how a bullet will perform and it appeals to the do-it-yourselfer.

If anything for poor man's ballistic gel I prefer the 'Meat Target' of Paul Herrell (YouTube). Humans are meat and there's different tissue (muscle, fat, bone and skin) throughout the body.

 
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This was the image that got me off 380. Top pistol is LCP (Gen 1) in 380. Bottom is Walther PPS M1 9mm with the 6 round magazine. Overall there is not much size difference between the two. Being this close in size, I did not see any reason to keep 380 around.

Ironically enough, shortly after selling the last 380 handgun and the ammo, the wife is now looking at 380 handguns again. Something something Murphy something something.
 

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Now add to these stats the independent studies which have shown criminals guns are unloaded,
defective, downright broken, or loaded with the wrong ammo, over 50% of the time, and I'd have to say
having any gun which is clean, lubricated, properly loaded, and in good working order will, unless you
live in Beirut, put you pretty far ahead of the power curve..
By today’s standards this is wrong. Today’s criminals are more educated about firearms, they have access to YouTube just like you and I.
 
Full disclosure: I carry a 45 or 10mm.

Having said that, I’m accurate with these two guns and they double as woods/pig hunting sidearms. That’s why I bought them.

It is far more important to be accurate than it is to carry a big caliber for SD. A miss is a miss, no matter what round you’re shooting.

The 380 might not be able to compete with bigger calibers in terms of energy, wound channel, or penetration. But that doesn’t mean it’s not very deadly. If we were talking about a 25 or 32, I’d agree that if you aren’t pretty much in arms reach, I’d want something different. But the 380 will do what it needs to a reasonable distance.

Curious: What was the diameter of the HP bullets that you recovered?
 
If, with full expansion, the 380 entered a depth of 8", why do you think that would not incapacitate an attacker; shot COM, that depth more than gets the heart
Why do you think you will get a COM shot? You may have to shoot from the side or at an angle you may have to shoot in a variety of positions, 8 inches is not sufficient to reach the vitals in those types of situations and yes it does happen.
 
I suspect that the first time someone gets shot, even at an angle, the fight will be over - either from them being hurt/dead, or running away scared. In either event, the immediate threat is stopped. Stats show the majority of instances where guns are used, shots aren't even fired - it is the mere presence of a gun that dissuades an attacker.

The 380 I will carry everyday is better than the .45 I leave at home most days - or so the saying goes.
 
I suspect that the first time someone gets shot, even at an angle, the fight will be over - either from them being hurt/dead, or running away scared. In either event, the immediate threat is stopped. Stats show the majority of instances where guns are used, shots aren't even fired - it is the mere presence of a gun that dissuades an attacker.

The 380 I will carry everyday is better than the .45 I leave at home most days - or so the saying goes.

This is where I am too. There is a lot of data that shows the 380 to be adequate. As many here know, I am very concerned with over-penetration of the shots that miss. Of course, some will smugly say something like "well, you should practice more so you don't miss." Some here are quite rude about it. However, that is what is called a false dichotomy. Here is a classic Example from another thread:
But I would much rather have a 9mm I am proficient with than a lesser caliber I am less proficient with.

It is an example of a false dichotomy because it ignores the third possibility, to practice and become proficient with a 380. In that case, one may ask, why should you have any concern for shots that miss? The answer is simple, when multiple shots are fired under stress, some of them will likely miss. We can reduce that likelihood, and certainly the number that miss, through frequent practice. Which can be done with a 9x17 as well as a 9x19; but the reality is still there, there is a high probability that some will miss.

Some will present a hypothetical scenario like "well what if the attacker is hiding behind a car, you need to be able to shoot through all of the bodywork and the engine block. To that scenario I say, "He is hiding behind something; great, that would be a great time to leave." In a civilian environment we are not advancing under fire, we are retreating with the purpose of disengagement.

I am not saying any thing against your decision to stop carrying a 9x17. After all, if you conducted the experiment in the first place, no matter what the method, it shows that you were having doubts about the adequacy of the 9x17. Certainly, if you lack faith in the efficacy of a pistol you are carrying for self defense, all other things being equal, then it is time for a change. However, decades of use show that both are adequate.

I currently carry a Kimber Micro 380. I practice with it quite a bit. Yes, it is possible to practice with a 9x17. No, I haven't taken any classes with it yet. That has more to do with my being too far from training facilities. So, yes, the last formal training was California POST, when I did that I was using a Standard 1911 in 45. However, many years have passed since then. (wait, stop, I used my Colt 380 Government model During training from the agency that issued my California CCW. . . the 380 Govt is very similar to the Kimber. . . almost forgot about that. That was before I went to KSA). I do use an electronic training Device (Mantis) and they have some very good training drills worked into the software.

I will admit, these 9x17 vs. 9x19 discussions, and there have been several recently, have had me reconsidering my resolve to stay with 9x17. For my next purchase I was really weighing between the Compact Browning 1911-380 and the Springfield EMP or Colt Defender (with the EMP coming out ahead). It will be a few months as I only make a single gun purchase per semester (this semester was a CZ 455 American). There is no magic to "one per semester" it is just where I have drawn my line.

All of this "9x19 is grossly superior" had me on the edge on the EMP. However, I see my self still leaning toward the 1911-380. Yes, I know there are platforms other than the 1911. This is a very long winded way of saying that I don't feel under-gunned with a 9x17; but, at the same time, I can understand a person coming to a different conclusion.
 
Let's do the stats....

If you are attacked and produce a handgun, 93% of the time your attacker will flee. By and large, they are looking for an easy target, not a fair fight.

So only 7% of the time does your cartridge matter.

For purposes of discussion, guess that a 380 with an XTP bullet will fail to dissuade your attacker 20% of the times you fire it. Pick another number if it suits you and alter the math that follows accordingly.

Given all of that, with a 380, your defense will fail about .07 x .20 = 1.4% of the time.

Add to that the actual times needing a pistol for SD, less than 1%, further reducing the odds.
 
Well said Hasaf,
My reason for originally testing the 380 was to actually prove to myself the naysayers were wrong. I actually had ribs I was going to shoot through in front of the wet pack to prove it. When I saw the results without the ribs I figured I wouldn't waste them and eat them .
I'm of the firm belief that if you can shoot a small caliber more quickly, accurately, and proficiently over a 9,40,45 then do it and feel good about it. Number of quick accurate hits count. No hand gun is a one shot manstopper. For me, I can hit with 9mm just as quickly and accurately as the 380 plus 9mm ammo is cheaper. So FOR ME with my testing 380 is not the platform I would like to use. Basically just wanted to share my results and encourage others to test for themselves, which is always a good thing.
 
To add to what Hasaf posted above, there are so many failures in a well-implemented self-protection strategy that must occur before defensive-firearm caliber even comes into play.

To name a few:

There must be someone seeking to do evil lurking about.

He must be equipped to carry out his potentially-deadly plan.

You must be in the same vicinity as him.

He must select you as a viable target.

He must get to within close enough proximity to you.

You must fail to observe/confront/challenge him (if he "gets the drop" on you, caliber won't matter.)

You must fail to draw/deploy your weapon (again, caliber won't matter.)

If you do draw, he must not be deterred.

If you fire (miss or not), he must continue to "soldier on" (not flee, surrender, or be neutralized.)

At this point, caliber may begin to play a factor.
 
A few short years ago ATK came into our range along with a few hundred pounds of ballistic gel. They ran tests for us using .223/45/.40/9mm/and .380.
The point of testing was to show LEO agencies that changes in the quality of ammo would allow municipalities could very safely move from 40 down to 9mm with no loss in penetration or expansion.
These guys are so good they produced the exact same penetration could be achieved with literally any of these calibers. In fact they created their rounds to expand and penetrate to approximately 12-15 inches in their gel including their .223 rounds.
The surprise was the .380 that was very close to the 9mm in performance. After seeing these tests firsthand I am confident when going for a walk and I drop my Ruger LCP in my back pocket wallet holster, I am not under gunned.
 
Bravo. I agree totally with You Godsgunman and George P. I have my Pico with Me all the time, and have seen enough test that show it is a viable cartridge for Carry. And when cold weather approaches, the Nano 9mm or Ruger LCR9mm. And in some cases, the Pico will also travel with the 9MM. I will focus on training and accuracy and let the Bigger Bore guys debate from here to Oblivion. If they want to carry a 40.cal that is fine, A Desert Eagle 500 fine.
The Bottom line is I do NOT NEED a 40. nor do I want one.
I do find the caliber war's rather amusing. Looking at all the test is enough to make a person dizzy to say the least. So many opinions of Gel, vs Paper, vs glass,Nato vs police, vs civilian, vs Zombies, and on and on and on.
 
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I have discussed this with several emergency room trauma specialists.

Their consensus was that when a person is shot in the arm with a.22LR, 7 or 8 times out of ten, that person will react "Oh My God" I've been shot.! And then drop like they had been hit by a cannon ball.

You can't count on this, of course, but it gives you pretty good odds if you have any firearm at all.
 
If you don't trust the 380 ACP then you must think I'm nuts for occasionally carrying a Kel-Tec P-32 in 32 ACP. :what:

Lol, don't think you are nuts. I looked at the 32 acp also because it's such a shootable caliber like shooting a 22. Again being limited to fmj and it being a more pricey cartridge I didn't find it practical for me, not that I don't or won't ever buy one. Just if it's a carry gun for me I'd like it to have deep penetrating fully expanding bullets. Just my preference.
 
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