Why I no longer carry .380

[Godsgunman]

First off this post is just an opinion I have come to based on my own tests and observations. It is not meant to persuade you in any way as there are merits to every round out there and with a plethora to choose from one must come to their own opinion. This just happens to be mine.

I recently purchased a Sig p290 in 380. I had a 380 a long time ago and wanted to give it another try with all the advancements in bullets lately. As far as the gun goes, loved the sights, pocketability, and soft shooting. It was the round itself I found lacking. I did my research, watched many YouTube videos by TNoutdoors, ScubaOz, etc before my purchase. I however wanted to do my own testing on my chosen ammo from my research.

I used bottles packed with wet pack as my media. (I know, not fbi approved media, but what I have always used to do all my ammo testing). I find wet pack to be closer to real meat and organs due to my personal hunting experience and medical experience. My bullets were 90gr fmj and hornady xtps 90gr.

RESULTS
Fired from 3 yds away the Hornady exited the first 2 liter bottle and entered but did not exit 2nd. I shot a 2nd xtp with the same result. Width of total wet pack traveled was 8 inches with full expansion. Much lacking in penetration in my opinion.
The fmj entered and exited 5 bottles totaling 22+ inches. To much penetration in my opinion. Plus just leaving just a small wound cavity since no expansion.
Due to these results I have decided the 380 is not the platform for me personally. My conclusion is that while it is a very shootable caliber, The small weight lends to limited penetration with an expanding bullet. With 9mm and even 38 special coming in the same size guns nowadays there are far better options for me personally.

Here are some pictures

 

[Browning]

What kind of penetration have you gotten with other cartridges and loads and wet pack? (.38 Spl, 9mm, .40 S&W, .357 Sig, .357 Mag, 10mm, .45 ACP etc)

 

[George P]

If, with full expansion, the 380 entered a depth of 8", why do you think that would not incapacitate an attacker; shot COM, that depth more than gets the heart

 

[Browning]

If, with full expansion, the 380 entered a depth of 8", why do you think that would not incapacitate an attacker; shot COM, that depth more than gets the heart

I'm guessing because of the FBI standards.

FBI Ballistic Test Protocol: bullet penetration standards

A handgun bullet must consistently penetrate a minimum of 12 inches of tissue in order to reliably penetrate vital organs within the human target regardless of the angle of impact or intervening obstacles such as arms, clothing, glass, etc. Penetration of 18 inches is even better. Given minimum penetration, the only means of increasing wound effectiveness is to make the hole bigger. This increases the amount of vital tissue damaged, increases the chance of damaging vital tissue with a marginally placed shot, and increases the potential for quicker blood loss. This is important because, with the single exception of damaging the central nervous system, the only way to force incapacitation upon an unwilling adversary is to cause enough blood loss to starve the brain of its oxygen and/or drop blood pressure to zero. This takes time, and the faster hemorrhage can occur the better.

The only question is if wet pack provides the same sort of medium as ballistic gel.

 

[Merle1]

What kind of penetration have you gotten with other cartridges and loads and wet pack? (.38 Spl, 9mm, .40 S&W, .357 Sig, .357 Mag, 10mm, .45 ACP etc)

Agreed - without a side by side comparison (in the same test media) with known good performers, this test doesn't give a good picture.

 

[dogtown tom]

....I used bottles packed with wet pack as my media. (I know, not fbi approved media, but what I have always used to do all my ammo testing). I find wet pack to be closer to real meat and organs due to my personal hunting experience and medical experience. My bullets were 90gr fmj and hornady xtps 90gr.

"Wet pack" is what exactly? Wet newspaper?

The fmj entered and exited 5 bottles totaling 22+ inches. To much penetration in my opinion.

Be glad you haven't tried 9mm, .38+P, heck even .22magnum.

Plus just leaving just a small wound cavity since no expansion.

Which is what happens when you use a testing medium that isn't used by anyone other than YouTubers and neophytes.
What are you comparing it to?
How did 9mmP perform? .38special? .357mag?
Your "test" wasn't a test.

Due to these results I have decided the 380 is not the platform for me personally. My conclusion is that while it is a very shootable caliber, The small weight lends to limited penetration with an expanding bullet. With 9mm and even 38 special coming in the same size guns nowadays there are far better options for me personally.
Here are some pictures

Where are your photos of other calibers?
This wasn't a test or even a comparison, it's just incomplete information that has no bearing on the defensive use of a particular caliber or loading.

 

[Godsgunman]

Good question George, again all this is subjective and I'm not saying I would ever want to be shot with a 380. Real life isn't stagnant. I believe very rarely will you have a straight on AP (front to back) shot. Most will be angled and if COM will have to penetrate sternum or rib. With seeing only 8 inches through the bare wet pack I did not see the need to shoot through rib, which I did have on hand. Maybe I should have...

 

[denton]

Wounding ballistics is a complex subject.

There was a fellow who did a YouTube series on 380 handgun cartridges. His tests were through 6 layers of denim, followed by ballistic gelatin. His tests discredited some well regarded rounds, like the Gold Dot and the Hornady FTX. When he was done, he had five cartridges that performed better than the others. All of those had one thing in common: They use the Hornady XTP bullet. So I think you have the right projectile.

IIRC, he was getting 10.5 inches with the XTP. Of course, that does not meet the FBI 12 inch standard. But it's not zero, either.

Choice of carry firearm is a highly personal matter, so I don't disparage your choice at all. But at this point, I'm quite comfortable with by 380 and the XTP.

Of course, having other rounds to compare with would be nice, but wet pack has been used for a long time and is generally accepted as being close to organs in density. I'm a hardcore experimentalist, and would just note that more comparisons are always good, but shooting into wet pack still gives useful information.

 

[FL-NC]

Good call.

 

[Godsgunman]

Yes I have done previous testing with 38 spl, 9mm, 357. I currently don't have pictures as they were done before this current one. Some even a year or more ago. 38 Spl with 140gr xtps averaged 11 inches with expansion. 9mm 124gr xtps 13 in. 357 140gr xtps around 16 in.
Again this is MY personal findings through my process. I understand I am not a professional but this is the standard process I use while developing hand loads. The 38 and 357 are my own loads and not barn burner loads either. Is it perfect no, but that's why I prefaced everything the way I did.

 

[Sarge7402]

I'm guessing because of the FBI standards.

FBI Ballistic Test Protocol: bullet penetration standards

A handgun bullet must consistently penetrate a minimum of 12 inches of tissue in order to reliably penetrate vital organs within the human target regardless of the angle of impact or intervening obstacles such as arms, clothing, glass, etc. Penetration of 18 inches is even better. Given minimum penetration, the only means of increasing wound effectiveness is to make the hole bigger. This increases the amount of vital tissue damaged, increases the chance of damaging vital tissue with a marginally placed shot, and increases the potential for quicker blood loss. This is important because, with the single exception of damaging the central nervous system, the only way to force incapacitation upon an unwilling adversary is to cause enough blood loss to starve the brain of its oxygen and/or drop blood pressure to zero. This takes time, and the faster hemorrhage can occur the better.

The only question is if wet pack provides the same sort of medium as ballistic gel.

FBI criteria was geared to firearms and ammo intended for use by LEO's and C/O (Jail and Corrections) who very often have to engage a bad guy or gal with quit a wide range of objects intervenning (think back to the '30's and the 38 Super, 38/44 and 357 all designed to punch thru SOTA bullet proof vests and auto bodies of that era). Same holds true today. While civilians may encounter similar obsticales it is much more unlikely. a 16" deep man would have a maximum 48 inch chest

 

[denton]

Again this is MY personal findings through my process. I understand I am not a professional but this is the standard process I use while developing hand loads.

One of the nice things about physics is that it works equally well for everyone, professional or not. I think you did well.

 

[fxvr5]

An inherent flaw in your method is that there is no way to ensure that your wetpack is the same from one bottle to the next or from one test to the next. That's the advantage of ballistic gel. It can be calibrated and compared with some confidence from one test to another.

You might feel comfortable with your method, but a professional would have zero confidence in it for the reason cited above.

 

[Browning]

FBI criteria was geared to firearms and ammo intended for use by LEO's and C/O (Jail and Corrections) who very often have to engage a bad guy or gal with quit a wide range of objects intervenning (think back to the '30's and the 38 Super, 38/44 and 357 all designed to punch thru SOTA bullet proof vests and auto bodies of that era). Same holds true today. While civilians may encounter similar obsticales it is much more unlikely. a 16" deep man would have a maximum 48 inch chest

Yes, I know. Thanks.

That may have been true at one time, CHL's have changed things a bit though. There are an estimated 17.25 millions CHL holders in the US (Lott) and 900,000 LE officers. Some of the CHL holders don't carry regularly, but then again many of the LE's don't either.

That's not even figuring in gun owners who don't have permits and might have to defend themselves in their home or states where carry permits aren't needed.

 

[CDW4ME]

Why I no longer carry 380 .... there are better options available.
LCP
Gold Dot 90 gr. @ 841 fps / 141# KE
Hydra Shok 90 gr. @ 845 fps / 143# KE
PM9
Federal HST 124 +P @ 1,120 fps / 345# KE
Winchester Ranger T 124 +P @ 1,139 fps / 357# KE
PM40
180 gr. Speer Gold Dot @ 950 fps / 361# KE
155 gr. Federal Bonded @ 1,086 fps / 406# KE

380 is anemic compared to other pocketable calibers and a pocket 9/40 is 2nd option (for me) to something larger IWB.
Yes, a Kahr PM9/40 is pocketable, with appropriate pockets; don't wear skinny, fitted, slim fit, jeans/jorts.

 

[RecoilRob]

Your FMJ results show that expanding bullets in mouse-gun calibers are really limited and many choose to just use ball because it WILL penetrate most of the time to an adequate depth. Unless you can shoot well enough to miss all bone and heavy cartilage encased in an attacker....having something that can dig deep is a plus in my opinion. On a tough shot the 380 ball is not likely to over-penetrate and you will need everything it can give....while on the low resistance type shot it's going through which will also happen with expanding bullets of most calibers. We all tend to worry about the bullets when it's where they're placed that count for probably over 90% of what happens afterwards.

If you can handle a larger caliber by all means carry it, but if you find it inconvenient or your marksmanship under pressure is less than with the 380....you have gone backwards in your armament rather than forward.

 

[jmorris]

It isn’t the most powerful round but isn’t the weakest either.

 

[Waveski]

I respect your opinion , and I acknowledge that you have undertaken some degree of testing while I have not. That stated , I am certain that if I were on the receiving end of 8" of penetration by an expanding bullet I would be seriously rethinking my next move.

 

[Godsgunman]

Fxvr5,
I understand the inherent flaw in my method and do try to get the most consistency in each bottle. Same material, same amount of material, same amount of moisture. Yes, not perfectly precise, but pretty close.

 

[huntsman]

Good to know, so you’ll sell the P290 for $150. Then? Inferior guns should be priced accordingly.

 

[Godsgunman]

Lol, huntsman. Like I said I really like the Sig p290, just need to get the 9mm instead. Great shooting gun.

 

[jar]

Do what makes you warm and fuzzy.

 

[GunnyUSMC]

A few years ago two guys got into an argument (Lets call them Guy #1 and Guy #2). The smaller of the two(Guy#1) left and came back with his buddy that was over 300 bls (lets call him Guy #3). They went to the Guy #2's apartment and Guy#3 kicked the door in. Just inside the door stood the stood Guy#2 with a 9mm hand gun. Guy #2 fires one round, striking Guy #3 in the shoulder. Guy #1, while standing behind Guy #3 fires his 380 handgun at Guy #2, but strikes Guy #3 in the back. Guy #3 falls dead and Guy #1 flees the scene.
Now Guy #3 was only wearing a t-shirt, but he was fat and tall. The 380 bullet entered his back and penetrated about 12 inches striking his heart. It took six men to pick up guy #3 after he was put in a body bag. Never under estimate the power of a 380 .

 

[JONWILL]

I carry a 380 when I need something as concealable as possible. Mine I the S&W Bodyguard.
I only carry FMJ ammo. The 380 is good but has 2 things going against it. Light bullets~90 grains and moving slow ~800 FPS or so
I am looking for penetration. Get to where it will do the most damage and the FMJ does that best.

 

[denton]

Let's do the stats....

If you are attacked and produce a handgun, 93% of the time your attacker will flee. By and large, they are looking for an easy target, not a fair fight.

So only 7% of the time does your cartridge matter.

For purposes of discussion, guess that a 380 with an XTP bullet will fail to dissuade your attacker 20% of the times you fire it. Pick another number if it suits you and alter the math that follows accordingly.

Given all of that, with a 380, your defense will fail about .07 x .20 = 1.4% of the time.