why is Dragoon stronger/more powerful than 1858 Remington?

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tracyballard

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I'm starting to get the black powder bug, and I really like the BP revolvers, but something bugs me - open top revolvers. It's just hard to see looking at them how they can function without some sort of top strap. I really like the Dragoons because they are so big and powerful, and I like the Remingtons because the design seems cool with the quickly removable cylinder, and the top strap. My question is: the Dragoon is supposed to be the most powerful handgun available until modern times, but why is it able to be loaded to higher levels than the .44 Remington with the top strap? Just more massive?
 
-Actually, the Walker is more powerful than a Dragoon. In fact, a Dragoon is basically a cut-down Walker.

The Walker is fun to shoot, so's the Dragoon, but my favorite is still the '58 Remington. As it's been for over a third of a century.
 
The cylinder pin of the Remington is relatively thinner than the corresponding arbor of the Colt.
That somewhat compensates for the Colt not having a top strap.
 
The arbor is what gives the Colts their strength. It's over a half inch in diameter on the Walker and Dragoons. I would think it has a higher shear than the top strap on any Remington. If you have the arbor fit to the barrel lug correct and a tight wedge it's a very solid revolver. 50 grs in a Dragoon and up to 60 in a Walker. You would do well to get 35grs in a Remington. Most folks thing a Remington is stronger because they see the top strap. You don't see the arbor on the Colts.
 
The quick cylinder change is Hollywood romance BS. In the day if a man needed more than six rounds he carry another revolver. The Colt records don't show the sale of just cylinders. I have only seen one rare cased revolver with an extra cylinder.
 
the dragoon is not stronger then a 58 remington. it is more powerful because you can put more powder underneath the projectile in a walker or dragoon. However stronger goes to the remington as the remington design was sufficient for cartridge ammunition. The open tops werent.
 
Nicodemus,
There were quite a few cartridge conversions for the Colt open tops as well as the 1872 Colt. However they were pretty under powered compared to the later 45 Colt.

Another reason the Walkers and Dragoons were so massive is because of the metallurgy of the time. The steels were not as strong so if you wanted a more powerful load you needed more powder and if you got more pressure you needed more weaker steel to contain that pressure. Hence big, beefy frames and cylinders to hold it all. So then you had to put the guns in holsters on the HORSE rather than on your person. Hence the name "horse pistol". The sleeker and smaller Remingtons and later Colts could be worn tucked into a belt or holstered on a belt and thus were called "belt pistols". There were the smaller caliber guns (36 & 31 cal) that were designated "pocket pistols" for obvious reasons.
 
Still one of my favorite revolvers, not the R&M conversion, just a Richards conversion. In 44 Colt.

RichardsConversion001.gif

And while the 44 Colt is not the cartridge the 45 Colt became, it is still a decent cartridge on it's own. I believe it became the 45 when the army wanted an enclosed bullet in the cartridge and specified the 45 caliber. The casing was enlarged to swallow the bullet.

The 44 Colt originally used a 45 caliber bullet. Later the 44 Colt was reworked to utilize a bullet that was seated into the casing and the whole 43/44 caliber conumdrum came about because of that.

By the way, my conversion currently uses the smaller diameter bullet. I am thinking about adding another barrel that more closly replicates the original dimensions, but I want to get the bullet mold first.
 
Beautiful gun

you got there StrawHat . Just one of those designs that just appears to be Timeless , really sets you back in the day just looking at that piece . Now that's a real gun there with evelution and grace all in one package , very sweet .

Jaeger
 
TracyBallard

I used to think the same thing when I first purchased an open top , used to think how could this be strong enough to fire rubber bands even :D
My first was a real Colt 51 then the mighty 3rd Model Dragoon .
I didn't know sqwat back then ( and still don't :D ) but after I had to break that 51 down to clean , I understood completely how strong it actually is .
Then the 3rd Model Dragoon re-inforeced my love affair with the COLTS .
Especailly your new production Colts, modern steels etc etc, they have no lack in strength and can fire .45 Colt ammo all day long in a conversion cylinder . And oh yes , they make um :D ...As noted by MCB , the arbor is thick thick thick . Less fouling in a COLT also , the Remington tends to trap fouling real easy without a gas check installed , which just makes them weaker anywayz . Have you ever really looked at your 58 Remington and noticed how LITTLE metal there actaully is on it ? Look closer :D
I think the Rogers and Spencer exceeds everyone in strength and design if your looking for Top Strap revolvers though hands down , its a beast a true beast . I have never bent or broke an open top though and I think any modern ones not Brass framed are nearly impossble for that to even happen .
I have shotan arbor loose though but it was Tradtions brass frame and had molten pckets around the arbor . Not the guns designs fault, the makers fault purely .

Cheers, Jaeger

PS...I did not include the Ruger OA , its not a Repro of anything and is not authentic other than being Authentic Ruger
 
It ironic that the Remington 1858 is even called the "New Model Army" while the Ruger is named the "Old Army" when their names should be the other way around! But unfortunately the Colt 1860 Army set the standard that led to the Remington New Model Army, Beals or whatever.
Yes, the Ruger Old Army is the new kid on the block just like the American League has the designated hitter rule which is another controversial issue involving the baseball tradition.
At least no one asked which baseball league is stronger. :D
 
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You need to look at the open tops with an engineer's eye. It's not JUST the far more massive arbor. If it was then the guns would bend that arbor in short time. Instead it's the arbor in connection with the lower heel of the barrel sitting strongly against the end face of the lower frame that together form the basic tension-compression cantilever support design that holds the barrel firmly in place. It's really quite slick once you understand how it can do the job just as well as a boxed in frame like with the Remington. Think of this as a cantilever design much like the supporting elements for a projecting balcony.

If there is a weak point to the open tops vs the top strap design it's strictly in side to side rigidity. The top strap will definetly support the barrel against side to side play or flex much better than the open top style. But even there it's a moot point if the machine work tolerances are up to snuff on the open top gun.
 
Das Jaeger, Ratdog68

Thank you, as I said, one of my favorites. I am looking for an additional one, also in 44. Then stag grips, maybe some engraving...
 
well, heck, I guess I may have to try to pick up one of each, and maybe a Ruger OA as well! thanks for the wealth of info guys.
 
tracyballard wrote: My question is: the Dragoon is supposed to be the most powerful handgun available until modern times, but why is it able to be loaded to higher levels than the .44 Remington with the top strap? Just more massive?
Click to expand...

Well it’s just a question of size really – the 1858 is just too small:
445790[/ATTACH]"] Remmie1-1.jpg
Whereas the Dragoon – well:
445792[/ATTACH]"] misc4042.jpg
:)
 

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the design of the open top is not as strong in the end as the remington in anyway. Sure the arbor on a colt is thicker, but the junction of arbor slot, barrel slot, and wedge is the big issue. Ive tried to get the issues explained to me, and the best and most understandable is this:

Re: in regards to your post

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

interesting, but the metallurgy of the Italian imports is such, that the wedge bends and the barrel slot area bulges on the sides, after heavy firing over time- if the wedge deforms and the barrel bulges, there will be barrel to cylinder play

the reason the cylinders jam when wedge is pushed in all the way, is because some of the Italian guns are made that way- they start off on the tight side, so as the gun loosens up and is worn/fired a lot, then the wedge will go in all the way and the gun still be tight

I have a Colt conversion that does that, but as I keep firing it, I can see the wedge progressively has to be pushed further in to close up the gap.

eventually they all loosen up

the best fix is, better steels- stainless steel barrel, arbor, and wedge resists wear- stainless frames with stainless threads resist loosening up

the best wedge is one that bottoms out with a heavy lip all around, this way it can't be pushed in too far, made so by design it must be bottomed on barrel when installed. And make it from stainless or titanium so it doesn't bend.

but eventually then, the barrel will bulge on sides- they make those wedges soft on purpose, so they give instead of the barrel or arbor

I've spoken to a few gun mfrs., they said the blackpowder market is in decline, that's why they don't bother making blackpowder revolvers here in the states, no appreciable market. The only one who had the guts to do it, was Bill Ruger. Imperato did it with the Colt 2nd gen guns, but he only made a few parts for them, not the entire gun.
thanks for exchanging emails- IMHO the problem with the open tops in a nutshell is, the wedge or barrel lug deforms after continued firing- the cylinder/barrel gap therefore is not constant- it grows with each successive shot to some degree. The factory wedge system would work ok, if the wedge, barrel, and arbor were made from the best, strongest, hardest material possible- like titanium, stainless steel, or chromemoly steel. To date only the stainless has been made, I have an 1860 stainless made by ASM, it's quite nice and strong too. The brass and steel framed guns shoot loose eventually, the brass rather quickly- although I did have a steel Navy Arms Pietta that held up pretty good over time. The problem is, the Italians nickel plate brass to make it look nice, instead of making it from a really good material to begin with. The average bp/cb shooter is hooked on silly looks, and has limited technical mindset. They'll buy the cheap, but shiny gun, every time.
 
Please post the identity the writer or source of your reference; it would have more credibility. Although frankly, it's hard to be in agreement with someone who has so little respect for his readers:
The average bp/cb shooter is hooked on silly looks, and has limited technical mindset.
Click to expand...
 
IMHO the problem with the open tops in a nutshell is, the wedge or barrel lug deforms after continued firing- the cylinder/barrel gap therefore is not constant- it grows with each successive shot to some degree. The factory wedge system would work ok, if the wedge, barrel, and arbor were made from the best, strongest, hardest material possible-
Click to expand...

This is not a problem if the arbor is fit to the barrel lug correctly. When the arbor bottoms in the barrel lug, barrel gap does not change.

The current Italian revolvers are made of better materials than the originals and the originals are still being fired.
 
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