Why is much of Europe still sticking with the 9mm?

[Tamara]

jnb01,

Atlanta GA. PD

Ironically, the only PD in the metro ATL area I can think of that does. Georgia State Patrol carries the G22, and when the state police sneeze, all the smaller LE agencies in the state tend to catch a cold.

 

[Ky Larry]

It's because we're Americans and they aren't. We like bigger and more.
We invented V-8 engines,football, rock-n-roll, Harley-Davidsons, and the .45 ACP.
They invented Volkswagens, chamber music, soccer, Vespa scooters, and the 9mm Parabelum.
There are two types of people in the world- Americans and those who wish they were. Thank God I was born in the U.S.A.

 

[M67]

Because we are smarter?


(We need a smiley for "I'm grabbing my nomex undies and running for cover" )

 

[Ky Larry]

Not smarter,just different. Remember, America was founded by the people Europe didn't want. Our ancestors were the misfits, horsethiefs, malcontets, illigitamit children, and religious fanatics that got kicked out of Europe. These people built the greatest nation in history. How many people build rafts out of lawn chairs and styrofoam coolers and sail the open seas to get to Europe? How many people try to hide in the wheelwells of aircraft to get to Europe? How many million immigrant visas do Europen nations have to turn down every year? If you're so great, why aren't people willing to risk their lives to go to Europe?
Sorry for the rant. If I'm out of line, just delete this post. My Red, White, and Blue are showing.

 

[Newton]

Someone asks an interesting question about European caliber choices and he gets this:

There are two types of people in the world- Americans and those who wish they were. Thank God I was born in the U.S.A.

An astute comment on the subject of European caliber selection and no mistake

 

[SelfProclaimedExpert]

KY Larry,

I think you'll find that Europe, especially Germany, France and England are having problems with the huge influx of immigrants.

I'm not sure how you mean "risking their lives", but after leaving Cuba it's hard to pass up Miami in favor of Normandy.

 

[Oracle]

I wonder what all the different police departments in the Atlanta area do carry? I know that Walton county still carries 9mm Smiths.

 

[Mk VII]

there was never much interest in anything different from 9x19. "It's good enough for the army so it must be good enough for us" was the feeling if anyone bothered to consider the question at all.
Most police officers are not gun-oriented and have no more interest in their gun than in the workings of their personal radio - both tools of the job and you need to be able to use them properly, but that's all.

 

[BigG]

Wunderninetm refers only to those nines that have large capacity AND DA/SA triggers. The S&W Model 59 was first, as Tamara noted.

Also incorrectly known as Wondernine. per Funk & Wagnalls

 

[Correia]

Why is Europe sticking with 9mm?

Our criminals are tougher.

 

[jc2]

"It's good enough for the army so it must be good enough for us" was the feeling if anyone bothered to consider the question at all.

It's amazing--people believe that way over here about the 1911A1 and the .45 ACP!

 

[SelfProclaimedExpert]

BigG,

Like I asked earlier, a Glock 17, HK P7M13 and Beretta 92D AREN'T wondernines???

Wonder why.

 

[Caliburn]

I think AGTman hit it pretty well -- it's not a "free market" for handguns, so the 9 keeps it's monoply position (unless faced with a newcomer from "outside", like the Makarov or Tokarev rounds).

 

[TheeBadOne]

Spend some time over sea. You'll see that long arms (meaning MP-5's, etc) are much more common. The handgun really is secondary over there. They may wear the pistol, but when going to iffy calls the long gun is in play. Quite a change of pace from this side of the pond.

 

[BigG]

Self Proclaimed Expert:

The Glock and the Beretta would qualify as wundernines. The P7 is a single action, though high cap so no cigar. The Glock could be argued to be not because it is essentially DA only but I think it qualifies because of the short trigger reset that acts pretty much like an SA.

I think you had to be there because the time is past. Now everything is innovative, modern, high cap, compact, etc. The wundernine craze started with the S&W 59 and everybody copied the concept. S&W had a lot of police contracts and Glock did too. Beretta and HK soon followed. When the S&W 59 appeared, the only common autoloaders were single stack nines except the commercial Browning HP (not often seen), the Colt 45 Auto, and a few war trophy Lugers, P38s, etc.

I think wundernine also has a couple of humorous connotations, as in, "I shot him 12 times, I wonder when he's gonna fall?" or "I wonder if he can hit him, he only has 17 shots."

 

[SelfProclaimedExpert]

BigG,

You said it had to be DA/SA. A 92D is DAO. A Glock is SafeAction, DAO or SA, depending who you talk to. A P7 is actually more like DA/SA than the other two.

Does a wondernine have to be DA/SA? You just included two guns that aren't.


Other hicaps that aren't DA/SA: VP70, XD, Steyr M, Sig 226 DAO, HK USP LEM, P99 QA, etc.

Not trying to be a pain, but I'm curious where the DA/SA rule came from.

 

[MJRW]

Don't many European countries have laws forbidding civilians from owning calibers higher than police or military or something? If that is the case, wouldn't going to a .40 or .45 suddenly arm the civilians with reasonable force by allowing 9mm, .357 sig, and so on?

 

[Climb14er]

Europeans have difficulty with anything more than one single digit, ie: 9mm.

 

[SelfProclaimedExpert]

MJRW,

Many countries have a no military caliber rule. Bigger is okay, just not the same. The slightly hotter 9x21 is designed to fit in 9mm pistols and is legal in those countries.

 

[BigG]

I didn't realize the Beretta was DAO. The 92xx is a DA/SA AFAIK; oddball variants would still fit under the umbrella, I guess.

The original term was coined to indicate a pistol that held a box of cartridges AND fired its first shot without having to be cocked. The S&W 59 was the archetype.

With that in mind, the HK P7 is a squeeze cocker so I guess the high cap model could also be a wundernine. All different methods of attaining the same goal, self cocking and high capacity.

 

[Mk VII]

Italy and France certainly have laws restricting so-called 'military calibres', which is why you get M1917 rifles in things like .300 Savage or '.30 Sporting' in France. But most of the others have no such rules.

 

[SelfProclaimedExpert]

self cocking and high capacity

That does seem more useful.

 

[trooper]

1. Because we always had 9's

2. Because 9mm apparently gets the job done

3. Because of public relations... anything bigger than absolutely necessary is considered ramboish <sigh>

Conclusion: the answer is a mix of most of your responses. However, I can positively assure you that I can count further than 9...

I have to admit that police shootings over here are much more rare than in the US. The average number of officers killed in the line of duty is about 10 per year (in a population of 90 million people and 300,000 cops). Therefore less emphasis is placed on firearms.



Regards,

Trooper

 

[9x19mm]

What trooper said. And I can count further than 9 too.

Stay Safe

 

[PC Load Letter]

To our European High-Roaders. I'd like to apologize for the comments of some of our more insulting American members. Many of them spew pseudo-patriot drivel any chance they can get. They're probably the same kind of people that put american flag bumper stickers on their SUVs and call it patriotic... (sigh).
I, for one, consider the 9mm an aesthetically pleasing caliber, and fun to shoot.