Why is much of Europe still sticking with the 9mm?

[10 Ringer']

After the short lived (and in some places continuing) love affair with the wonder 9 during the revolver to wheelgun switchover in law enforcement circles, and more recent move back toward the .40, .357sig and .45ACP, why hasn't Europe followed suit? The new CZ P01 adopted by the Czech government for example is so far only chambered in nine as were many of their other products until they started marketing them in the USA with chamberings in 40 and 45. The way I see it, could be a number of reasons:

1. Badguys there still fall to a 9 like our bad guys somehow don't (though I'm sure I would!!) unless a .45ACP is in action.

2. Politics and budgetary constraints make sense to arm the police like the military or NATO standard (though LAPD SWAT doesn't seem to follow Uncle Sam)

3. Could it be a matter of preceived cultural differences as in American power=45ACP whereas Europe doesn't believe in bigger is better=9mm?

4. Or, could it just simply be a matter of controllability and slightly better ease of aim from a small service pistol as weighed against making a bigger hole in the badguy (or possibly an innocent bystander)?

Thoughts and opinions... anything I'm missing?

 

[Kobun]

I don't even remember the last time someone was shot by the police here.
They still use S&W M10 .38 revolvers, but the gun that is brought from the station the times a gun is needed is the HK MP5.

 

[Wildalaska]

Thoughts and opinions... anything I'm missing?

How about...Europeans dont have gun magazines trying to convince cops that they should spend more tx payer $$ switching from one effective caliber to another...

WildormaybeitjustworksfineAlaska

 

[CMcDermott]

I think it's mostly cultural - pistols aren't really weapons in Europe, they're more symbols of office. They want something as small and light as possible - see how popular 30 & 32 caliber pistols are in Europe. When they have any expectation of needing force in European countries, they all bring out MP5's - just go through their airports sometime. U.S. A. gun culture is different - I guess it's the wild west gunfighter tradition that holds that pistols are indeed serious weapons in large calibers and tends to look down on small calibers as inadequite.

 

[CWL]

Why even experiment with other calibers when the rest of the (free) world is standardized on 9mm?

It is the standard issue for police and military (sometimes these are one & the same).

What would justify the cost of replacing these weapons?

 

[jc2]

Because it works just fine.

 

[Tamara]

It's the single most common caliber for military & police pistols and SMG's world-wide, and has been since at least the 1930's. It must be doing something okay.

 

[clubsoda22]

nothing wrong with 9mm. It stops bad guys just fine. Only problem is that a lot of cops can't hit a thing with their pistols. Most departments handgun qualification courses are pitiful.

 

[Standing Wolf]

I'd guess it's because staid old Europe is decrepit and set in its ways.

 

[Lancel]

It's like football versus soccer. Cultural differences, both are crowd pleasers.

Larry

 

[agtman]

"Why is ... Europe still sticking with the 9mm?"




Well, let's see. Possible answers include:

(a) We're Americans, so why should we care if the French gendarmes love their cute little 9mm HKs?

(b) Having a (mostly) free market economy here allows American civilians, LEOs and LEAs choices & options to experiment with, even in the more regulated "marketplace of guns & ammo." In 99.9% of European countries, by comparison, no such "choices" exist for pistol ammunition, which is typically restricted to the police and military anyway. So it's not like "Europeans" in general have a huge range of choices in pistol calibers other than 9mm.

(c) For police and military units in Europe, the use of the 9mm as a pistol caliber is a top-down mandate. No deviations are permitted. So that's what gets issued. And that's what European ammomakers continually produce in what is, essentially, a command economy in small arms and munitions.

(d) When it comes to "crime control," Europeans want to appear "civilized." So most Euro countries (1) severely restrict or outright ban the private ownership of handguns, and then (2) restrict their police to the largest caliber least likely to hurt anyone or create a mess if it's actually used in a violent criminal encounter.

Hence, the 9mm is the obvious choice.

 

[El Tejon]

9mm pistols are lighter thus easier on the Euro before they are dropped in surrender.

 

[Oracle]

It could simply be that they don't fall for the "Caliber War" bs that so many Americans seem to fall prey to. Which do you think would improve the ability of the police to stop those whom they shoot, $20,000 spent on changing their guns to a slightly larger caliber, or $20,000 spent on providing effective training to the officers?

 

[Obiwan]

Let me see....

Maybe they have not figured out that the only way to get new weapons is to....

Absoultely need a NEW and IMPROVED caliber

Because 9mm will do the job...if you do yours!

 

[Chris Rhines]

What the Jedi said.

The 9mm will do if you will do; conversely, if you won't do, even a .600 Loudenboomer won't cut it...

- Chris

 

[JohnKSa]

After the short lived (and in some places continuing) love affair with the wonder 9 during the revolver to wheelgun switchover in law enforcement circles

Huh?

I think your starting premise shows a complete lack of information about LEO carry guns outside the U.S.

Lots of LEOs in Europe were carrying autopistols before WWII.

And, other than in the U.S. the "love affair" with the wondernine has been going on since the Browning HP was introduced in the 30s. The love affair with the 9mm autopistol has been going on for 30 years longer than that. Hardly short-lived.

The .45, the .40 and probably the .357Sig are all targeted for the U.S. market. Europe never used them much to begin with, so how could they move back to them?

 

[Tamara]

JohnKSa,

I thought a "Wondernine" was technically a DA/SA high capacity 9mm, thereby disqualifying the GP-35. I think the S&W 59 was the first to put a DA trigger and a double-stack mag in the same gun, actually.

 

[SelfProclaimedExpert]

I had no idea "wondernine" was such a codified term. I had thought hicapacity was the only prerequisit.


So a Glock 17, Beretta 92D and P7M13 aren't wondernines?

Coulda fooled me.

 

[WonderNine]

My P-35 is a Wondernine!!!

 

[jc2]

I've always used "wondernine" for all high capacity nines (including the P-35, but it pre-dated the term).

I'm still not convinced (and there is absolutely no way to verify) that the "wondernine" is still not the most widely used handgun in American LE just based on the size of a number of the agencies that still authorize (or require) a nine. San Diego, LA (PD and Sheriff), St Louis, NYC (and suburbs), etc. represent an awful lot of LEOs. I know Winchester, Speer and Federal have spent big bucks developing the current generation of LE 9x19 ammunition--there must be a market for it because these are all profit driven companies. I think "the short lived (and in some places continuing) love affair with the wonder 9 during the revolver to wheelgun switchover in law enforcement circles" was shortlived in the gunrags--not necessarily law enforcement. The rumours of the death of 9x19 in LE are greatly exaggerated.

 

[Gary A]

In a slight deviation, despite the perception that American pistoleros have all preferred the larger bores, seems to me that Wild Bill Hickcock preferred a brace of Navy Colts in (gasp) .36 caliber. Apparently he shot them better and faster was not concerned with what folks thought about the size of his bore. The biggest bore of all is the endless debate.

 

[Tamara]

jc2,

"Death" of the high-cap nine in police holsters? Probably not, but it doesn't have the dominant position it once did.

For a while, if you said "cop gun" to me, I would have immediately thought ".38 K-frame". Then, for a large chunk of the late '80s, the first gun to spring to mind would've been "9mm Smith autochucker". Now, it'd be ".40 Glock". It may not have the majority share its loyal adherents would claim, but it does have a fairly sizeable plurality. (At least as far as # of agencies goes. As far as total # of pistols, it'd take a lot of sheriff's departments using .40 Glocks to make up for LA's Berettas and NYPD's 9mm Glocks...)

 

[Quartus]

Well, I have to agree with the "cultural differences" argument that some here have made.

After all, look at American cars & especailly trucks compared to theirs. Seems to me they just like dinky little things.

 

[JeepDriver]

Could it be the almost 100 years the 9x19 has been around?

Could it be the 9mm works?

 

[jnb01]

As was stated by a couple of other folks, LE hit ratio's are very poor, as most officer's simply do not spend adequate amounts of time on the range, as many departments do not allocate the necessary money for it. Additionally, most do not attend tactical training courses or practice on their own time, so proficiency is left wanting.

Those who make the decisions within LE departments, often try and solve a software problem with a hardware solution, foregoing advanced levels of training yet adopting a caliber that's harder to shoot. How might I ask, are hit ratio's supposed to "improve" given this scenario?

Many U.S. Departments still issue or authorize the 9mm, here's a short list.

NYPD
NYSO
LAPD
SDPD
Santa Clara PD
LA Co. sheriff
San Bernadino PD
NJSP
Chicago PD
Philadelphia PD
Atlanta GA. PD
St. Louis PD
Palm Bay Fl. PD
LVMPD
Dallas TX. PD
US Customs
Ect. Ect.......

Looks like even some folks here in the U.S. still feel the nine is just fine.

All of the service caliber's benefit when the best ammunition available for them is used. Ranger, Federal Tactical, and the Gold Dot usually top the list, and most agencies seem to be utilizing one of these brands, it seems the Gold Dot and Ranger bullets are most popular.

I for one, would never sacrifice even the slightest amount of "shootability" for any real or percieved ballistics performance advantage. One may exist between the 9mm and the larger service calibers, though it appears to be less than originally thought when all are properly loaded. However, can the shooter capitalize on any benefit that may be offered by the larger caliber, by controlling the pistol and firing it well enough to accurately and rapidly place their shots on target, particularly while under stress? If not, where does the advantage come in?

Best, jnb01