Why is muzzle discipline so hideously poor amongst Olympic shotgun shooters?

[HetchHetchy]

I’ve been shooting Skeet and International Skeet for 45 years and it is as you say, but maybe it’s time for a change.

When using a break-action gun you can maintain muzzle discipline by hoisting the stock to your shoulder by the barrel while always having the barrel pointed to the ground with very little effort. This maintains the second rule of gun safety by removing the “exception for shotgun sports” and reinforces the concept. There is NEVER a question where the barrel should be pointed.

Semi and pump action shotguns present a problem in that the ejection port may not always be visible to other shooters or the public. When hunting with others and using these actions you would maintain muzzle discipline, so what’s so hard about doing it while competing? How about some bright person inventing a muzzle pad that attaches to the shoe that doesn't cover body/feet parts? I have an idea in mind that I think would work - an elastic band that goes around the instep with a short extension away from the foot with a resting pad on the end... no charge for its use!

Good habits are hard to break when there are NO exceptions…. just sayin’.

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Excellent points. It does seem that sweeping people with the muzzle of a firearm (broke open or not) is always a bad idea. Always -- particularly when it's so easy to avoid as you note.

The "muzzle on the foot" posture just makes the competitor look stupid and lazy -- as if they don't care or don't understand gun safety. At least in this case they aren't sweeping someone else.

Probably the worst part is the image it projects to the world about gun safety. Millions watch the Olympics. Instead of the commentators noting the safe gun handling practices we see competitors nonchalantly sweep others with their muzzles, often as fast as they can for some unknown reason. It projects a terrible image when it could easily project a safe one.

 

[Acera]

The "muzzle on the foot" posture just makes the competitor look stupid and lazy -- as if they don't care or don't understand gun safety. At least in this case they aren't sweeping someone else.

To you and the rest of the A-Retentive crowd, but to a lot of folks who have been enjoying the smoothbore sports for decades upon decades, it is understood that it is completely safe and an accepted part of the sport. Guess it is a good thing most out there don't get their panties in a wad like you do (and some others) over a common safe practice. Some people live in a world of absolutes, that can't be flexible, while others live in a practical one where they understand and apply safe practices that meet their needs.

Calling those competitors, the best in the world, stupid and lazy is ignorant and childish at best.



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[Carl N. Brown]

Old school shotgun sportsmen I've been around are strict about muzzle discipline with closed shotguns especially when assured it was unloaded when there's no way to tell. But a hinge action broke open or semi-auto locked back with no shell on the follower was a confirmed unloaded gun. Olympic shotgun shooters are evidently steeped in the old school of knowing how to render a shotgun completely safe (open, clear breech, leave it open) and staying aware of their guns' status. I would feel safe around them even though I appreciate Cooper's Four.

In general though, more people today prefer to follow hunting party or jungle patrol rules: no muzzle sweeping anyone or anything you like and don't want a hole in. From the ill disciplined once-a-year or so shooters I have known, I have come to appreciate strict adherence to Cooper's Four but let's face it, that's gun safety for dummies (including me).

 

[HetchHetchy]

Old school shotgun sportsmen I've been around are strict about muzzle discipline with closed shotguns especially when assured it was unloaded when there's no way to tell. But a hinge action broke open or semi-auto locked back with no shell on the follower was a confirmed unloaded gun. Olympic shotgun shooters are evidently steeped in the old school of knowing how to render a shotgun completely safe (open, clear breech, leave it open) and staying aware of their guns' status. I would feel safe around them even though I appreciate Cooper's Four.

In general though, more people today prefer to follow hunting party or jungle patrol rules: no muzzle sweeping anyone or anything you like and don't want a hole in. From the ill disciplined once-a-year or so shooters I have known, I have come to appreciate strict adherence to Cooper's Four but let's face it, that's gun safety for dummies (including me).

I appreciate your comments. I'll add, exactly what is the opportunity cost for always exhibiting safe muzzle discipline no matter what the shooting sport? There really is none. Some just don't want to follow (possibly new) rules when "we've been doing it this way forever." I think some also don't want to acknowledge that it wouldn't hurt to always follow safe gun handling practices, even if it's largely for the benefit of those watching.

 

[macgrumpy]

Why don't shotgunners follow the same rules as other shooters?

Because shotgunners were traditionally the elite class of our society and they have always felt that they were smarter than everyone else and therefore they didn't have to follow the rules that were made for the ignorant masses. When I ran a range in Utah I was always arguing with the elite shotgunner crowd that dominated the management group. They were always thinking up new "solutions" for the "unsafe" acts committed by the rifle shooters. Their favorite issue was complaining about rifle shooters sweeping the other shooters, when I pointed out that;

1. I enforced an open chamber rule
2. If a shooter swept the line it was not a normal practice since we didn't allow it to happen
3. If a shooter swept the line we only warned them once, a second occurrence got them kicked off the range

The shotgunners said that it didn't matter because the shotgunners "felt" like it was dangerous. They even complained about guys that "swept" the line without a bolt in the rifle. They wanted my black powder shooters to load AND cap their rifles at the firing line - big violation of standard black powder procedures (against the NRA rules that we ran our range by).

When I showed the shotgunners videos of their crowd actually sweeping their fellow trap shooters (sweeping with loaded shotguns) I was told that it was just traditional for shotgunners to handle their guns that way.

In general it's just another privileged class attitude, shotgunners are typically just too good to follow the same rules as other shooters.

 

[9mmepiphany]

what is the opportunity cost for always exhibiting safe muzzle discipline no matter what the shooting sport? There really is none.

You might be mistaken. The Opportunity Cost is a lost of focus by replacing Unconscious Competence with, at best, Conscious Competence.

I would offer that changing from one long proven safety practice to another, just for the benefit of observers, introduces the opportunity for confusion and possible error.

 

[HexHead]

If you're that worried about muzzle discipline, I suggest you stay out of busy gun stores, and certainly never work in one. You'll get muzzle swept 100x a day.

 

[Warp]

It's no worse than every gun store I have ever been in. All those pistols sitting in the display case, all pointed either horizontally or with a large horizontal component, all very very frequently pointed at people...every time one is retrieved from the case or placed into the case, it is sweeping people while being handled. And a lot of gun stores don't even use chamber flags, they do this with actions closed and no flags.

To be worried about broken-open and empty shotguns seems pretty silly. Probably you should start by carrying your soap box to the LGS.

 

[Saw-Bones]

Guessing These Competitors No Longer Think Muzzle Direction Is Just Silly

Incident one:
It was the toe-pad’s fault and the muzzle direction was just coincidental.

Incident two:
Needing only one round for an alibi and loading two as usual was the problem and the muzzle direction was just coincidental.

Picture deleted because it is too graphic - I will have to send it to a moderator for a decision.





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[Warp]

Clearly a broke-open and empty shotgun was not used to shoot that foot, though being in the habit of pointing the gun at yourself would certainly seem to be a factor

 

[HetchHetchy]

You might be mistaken. The Opportunity Cost is a lost of focus by replacing Unconscious Competence with, at best, Conscious Competence.

I would offer that changing from one long proven safety practice to another, just for the benefit of observers, introduces the opportunity for confusion and possible error.

No. If you watch those shooters, their process to set, arm, shoot, clear and then leave their mark is carefully canned to the fine details.

If while they trained they observed muzzle discipline it wouldn't take any extra conciseness while shooting in competition.

Reference posting #21 on this thread.

 

[HetchHetchy]

If you're that worried about muzzle discipline, I suggest you stay out of busy gun stores, and certainly never work in one. You'll get muzzle swept 100x a day.

That would depend on the gun shop.

 

[HetchHetchy]

Incident one:
It was the toe-pad’s fault and the muzzle direction was just coincidental.

Incident two:
Needing only one round for an alibi and loading two as usual was the problem and the muzzle direction was just coincidental.

Picture deleted because it is too graphic - I will have to send it to a moderator for a decision.

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Thanks for sharing. I thought such accidents were impossible with shotguns? /sarcasm.

 

[HetchHetchy]

Also is there a reason that most shooters (at least male shooters) shift into what looks like a show of hyper animated irritation once they have fired (whether they hit their clay or not?) It's almost as if they are upset about something?

 

[cfullgraf]

I did not see it mentioned, but in skeet, shells are not permitted in the shotgun except when standing in the shooting position ready to shoot. I'm sure the other shotgun sports have similar rules.

Many ranges only allow loading one shell when shooting singles.

I shot competitive skeet for many years and I do not feel concerned resting an EMPTY, broken open O/U shotgun on my foot. I do not like resting the shotgun over my shoulder and it is too much energy wasted holding the shotgun in my hands.

I would not rest a closed O/U shotgun, a pump shotgun or a semi-auto shotgun on my foot.

Everyone that I ever shot with was always careful with where the muzzle of their shotgun was pointing. I agree that that it is poor etiquette and safety to indiscriminately swing the muzzle of the gun around.

At least with a break action shotgun like an O/U shotgun, if the action open, the holder generally does not carry it in anything resembling a "ready to shoot" position.

Just my opinion and add it to $5 and you can get a cup of designer coffee.

 

[Saw-Bones]

@Warp - Clearly you are correct, but the point being is that if you obey the 4 rules of gun safety the likelihood of injury to your self or others is probably not going to happen. As a pilot in the Marine Corps we ALWAYS used checklists for safety's sake, even in aircraft that I accumulated thousands of hours in. It was boring as hell, but more than a few times we caught problems before they became tragedies much the same way practicing the four rules does for shooting. And in that regard our safety record was exemplary. Antiaircraft fire… well, that was another story.

@Chuck - Our experiences differ in that in the numerous skeet ranges I’ve shot at (mostly military bases), I was never restricted to one round in the shotgun except for station 8. Restricting the loading of only one round in the gun for singles may be an advantage for an O/U shooter that might want to use only the lower barrel for reduced muzzle rise resulting in less impact to the cheek, but not for a semi-auto guy like me.

At one of the regional shoots I was at, the match champion used a tubed O/U for 20 and 28 gauge and .410 bore, but he used a semi-auto in 12 gauge. Could the stress of a long shoot-off cause a lapse of attention in mishandling a gun with a different action? Maybe, maybe not, but this guy would have less chance of a costly error by practicing muzzle safety.

I’ll give your opinion some thought when I stop in at the last hospital I had privileges in because the coffee was always free, so I can save the cost of the high priced designer brew… and damn fine coffee it was!

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Incident one:
It was the toe-pad’s fault and the muzzle direction was just coincidental.

Thanks for sharing. I thought such accidents were impossible with shotguns? /sarcasm.

And we know this was a shotgun injury how?????

 

[shafter]

I wasn't into guns at the time, but I get the distinct impression that not twenty years ago even Americans were blase about muzzle sweeps compared to now. Then the internet came, and forum trolls started hassling people about anything less than near-paranoid levels of safety measures. A lot of it then was ignorance, a lot of it now is over-reaction.....

This is true. If that shotgun's action is closed then it should be always pointed in a safe direction, however a broken shotgun is clearly harmless. There is no way that it can go off and harm someone. Any casual observer can readily see this. I would be more worried about the person carrying the shotgun over their shoulder whacking someone in the head with it accidentally than it going off.

It's like field stripping your Glock and pointing the barrel at yourself when cleaning it. When it's in pieces the rules don't apply for obvious reasons.

 

[Warp]

Thanks for sharing. I thought such accidents were impossible with shotguns? /sarcasm.

We also know that such accidents are impossible with every gun other than a double barrel shotgun.

But the poster above raises a good point...can you link to where we can see that injury being caused by a break-open style shotgun in a game such as the ones in the Olympics?

 

[Waveski]

Incident one:
It was the toe-pad’s fault and the muzzle direction was just coincidental.

Incident two:
Needing only one round for an alibi and loading two as usual was the problem and the muzzle direction was just coincidental.

Picture deleted because it is too graphic - I will have to send it to a moderator for a decision.





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The balance of the toe looks oddly intact.

Please don't take the question personally - Are you sure of the authenticity of the photograph?

If it is your own foot I apologize.

 

[Caliper_Mi]

I'll admit that I find the shotgun toe rest strange. I'm now a shotgunner though. However, for those who propose strict, 100% of the time muzzle discipline, whether the gun is broken open or not...

How do you propose to clean a M1, M1A, 10/22, Marlin 60, etc?

How do you propose to shoot a muzzleloader?

Pretending that the metal tube in your hands might at any time blast out a death ray is as silly as never crossing the street because a truck might somehow materialize and run you over.

 

[Saw-Bones]

Double Naught Spy - “And we know this was a shotgun injury how?????”

I don’t know what your experiences with firearm injuries are, but my six years as a homicide investigator in one of the top 5 largest cities in America, two tours as a combatant in S.E. Asia and 25 years as an orthopedist leaves no question in my mind. This wound has been surgically cleaned and is healing. Also note that the tissue is more ragged on the plantar surface, the exit wound, which is fairly common in gunshot wounds.

I would be curious to know what your experiences are that would lead you to believe it was anything other than a gunshot wound?

@Warp - No one is questioning the fact that an opened break barrel shot gun cannot cause this type of injury, but are you not able to understand that if you do not violate muzzle discipline it is almost impossible to shoot anyone, including yourself no matter what type of firearm you are using or activity being performed? Why do you think a shotgun competitor’s elitist attitude would give you an infallibility in gun handling?

Why not make a small sacrifice to show everyone around you what safe gun handling is? Especially on a world stage.

@Waveski - See my above remarks to Double Naught Spy. Exactly what do you mean by “oddly intact”? A gaping hole from a close range shotgun blast is not what I would call “oddly intact”.

I was a firearms instructor for a 3,500 man department and the four rules of gun safety was our first concern and was required to be inviolate… period! The only way it could have been my foot would be is some careless jerk swept it with his gun and shot me.

If this was your foot then I apologize for having embarrassed you.

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[danez71]

Taking ricochets into consideration, isnt a broken open shot gun is just about the ultimate in 'muzzle control' as there is zero chance of the gun firing whether or not the gun is 'unloaded'?

 

[Warp]

I don’t know what your experiences with firearm injuries are, but my six years as a homicide investigator in one of the top 5 largest cities in America, two tours as a combatant in S.E. Asia and 25 years as an orthopedist leaves no question in my mind. This wound has been surgically cleaned and is healing. Also note that the tissue is more ragged on the plantar surface, the exit wound, which is fairly common in gunshot wounds.

I would be curious to know what your experiences are that would lead you to believe it was anything other than a gunshot wound?

@Warp - No one is questioning the fact that an opened break barrel shot gun cannot cause this type of injury, but are you not able to understand that if you do not violate muzzle discipline it is almost impossible to shoot anyone, including yourself no matter what type of firearm you are using or activity being performed? Why do you think a shotgun competitor’s elitist attitude would give you an infallibility in gun handling?

Why not make a small sacrifice to show everyone around you what safe gun handling is? Especially on a world stage.

@Waveski - See my above remarks to Double Naught Spy. Exactly what do you mean by “oddly intact”? A gaping hole from a close range shotgun blast is not what I would call “oddly intact”.

I was a firearms instructor for a 3,500 man department and the four rules of gun safety was our first concern and was required to be inviolate… period! The only way it could have been my foot would be is some careless jerk swept it with his gun and shot me.

If this was your foot then I apologize for having embarrassed you.

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As has been pointed out in this thread, it is quite literally impossible to never allow the muzzle to point at yourself or another.

I am unaware of the "shotgunner elitist attitude" to which you refer.

How do you draw your holstered pistol, and re-holster your holstered pistol, without EVER having the muzzle cover any part of your body?

 

[HetchHetchy]

Muzzle control has always been an issue where I have shot and that was well before the Internet.

I'm thinking about when I qualified for my Hunter Safety permit in 7th grade. We shot single action Remington 22's in the basement of my middle school's gym. Had someone swept anyone with a rifle muzzle (whether the rifles was "safe" or not), they would have been booted from the course.