Why is muzzle discipline so hideously poor amongst Olympic shotgun shooters?

[Saw-Bones]

@Warp - You continually bring up a point that no one disputes. It’s the ingraining of safe gun handling that is the point. Instead of beating a dead horse, in your case it would be best to just dismount.

If you are unaware of the elitist attitude then you haven’t read several of the posts in this thread, you have not attended very many shotgun matches and you didn’t watch the Rio matches that the OP alluded to.

I use an OWB holster and I don’t cover myself during the draw and I WATCH my entire re-holstering to be sure I don’t cover myself as well… just like I and all the instructors taught the recruits in our academy to do.

Because you may not do it correctly, don’t assume that everyone else is unable to. But fear not, perfect practice makes perfect… you just have to work at it. I might add here that in all the time I was employed by my PD the ONLY injury was to a leo qualifying with a new gun that factory ammo blew it up causing minor injuries to the hands and chest. When you take into consideration that 3,500 sworn personnel were qualifying biannually, that’s pretty impressive as to what adhering to the rules can do.

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[Warp]

@Warp - You continually bring up a point that no one disputes. It’s the ingraining of safe gun handling that is the point. Instead of beating a dead horse, in your case it would be best to just dismount.

If you are unaware of the elitist attitude then you haven’t read several of the posts in this thread, you have not attended very many shotgun matches and you didn’t watch the Rio matches that the OP alluded to.

I use an OWB holster and I don’t cover myself during the draw and I WATCH my entire re-holstering to be sure I don’t cover myself as well… just like I and all the instructors taught the recruits in our academy to do.

Because you may not do it correctly, don’t assume that everyone else is unable to. But fear not, perfect practice makes perfect… you just have to work at it. I might add here that in all the time I was employed by my PD the ONLY injury was to a leo qualifying with a new gun that factory ammo blew it up causing minor injuries to the hands and chest. When you take into consideration that 3,500 sworn personnel were qualifying biannually, that’s pretty impressive.

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You say that, but you disputing my point once again in this very post.

An awful lot of people who carry don't do so OWB. If you know how we can carry IWB without ever pointing the muzzle at ourselves, I'm all ears

 

[Waveski]

Saw Bones , you asked :"Exactly what do you mean by “oddly intact”? A gaping hole from a close range shotgun blast is not what I would call “oddly intact”."
What I said was "The balance of the toe looks oddly intact.", key word being balance.
While I am no expert , I do have some experience with the trauma displayed by tissues surrounding the area of an injury or surgery. The tissues surrounding the gaping hole look relatively healthy. The toenail even looks nearly normal , as opposed to discolored - or gone altogether. There is no apparent swelling , no massive bruising. I would have expected to see that toe pretty much blown off by a point blank impact of that nature , not looking pretty healthy except for the Fearless Fosdick type gaping round see-through hole.

http://images.search.yahoo.com/sear...ics/00000001/B_AC.fosdick1bg.jpg&action=click

As to your reference to the possibility of the foot being mine , I don't think so , but I will check.

 

[Saw-Bones]

@Waveski - You either didn’t read or didn’t understand when I posted, “This wound has been surgically cleaned and is healing.” The wound displayed in the photo is not the immediate aftermath of the injury and “surgically cleaned and healing” is the definitive remark here.

If you are familiar with gunshot trauma you would know that in other than barrel contact gunshot wounds where stippling and starburst patterns from the gases rupturing the surrounding tissue is present, the exit wounds display more shredded tissue than the entry wound as is indicated in the photo. Understand that the shoe negates or mitigates the starburst pattern and also reduces the stippling as well.

By your remarks I can appreciate that you are not an expert, so perhaps a general discussion of anatomy might be of help.

There is an artery that runs medial to lateral across the anterior ball of the foot that was not disrupted by the gunshot and an arteriole from that artery that goes to the first (big) toe runs up the medial side of the first toe and wouldn’t be disrupted, unless there was an anomaly, and the anterior toe and toe nail would be spared the necrosis caused by the loss of the blood supply.

Perhaps an anatomy class and instruction in gunshot trauma and subsequent stages of healing by someone other than me would be of immense help to your understanding. Good luck in your quest for knowledge.

 

[HetchHetchy]

As has been pointed out in this thread, it is quite literally impossible to never allow the muzzle to point at yourself or another.

I am unaware of the "shotgunner elitist attitude" to which you refer.

How do you draw your holstered pistol, and re-holster your holstered pistol, without EVER having the muzzle cover any part of your body?

There is a world of difference between looking down the muzzle of a gun (only when absolutely necessary) one is cleaning versus (seemingly carelessly) sweeping others while shooting.

One thing I am certain of. At the trap/skeet/clays range at the complex I shoot at, if anyone sweeped others with the muzzles of their shotguns as they do in the Olympics, they would be asked to stop. If they continued they would be told to leave. Thankfully that precludes a lot of the "shotgunner elitist attitude" experienced at other ranges.

 

[Acera]

One thing I am certain of. At the trap/skeet/clays range at the complex I shoot at, if anyone sweeped others with the muzzles of their shotguns as they do in the Olympics, they would be asked to stop. If they continued they would be told to leave. Thankfully that precludes a lot of the "shotgunner elitist attitude" experienced at other ranges.

Seriously?

Tell us where that would be. I would like to know of such a range.


Name, city and state please.




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[bikemutt]

I shot a lot of trap when I was younger, 100, 200 or more rounds in an evening were common. Resting a broke open BT99 on a toe was the norm, mostly as a way to give the upper body a break between targets. In all those years shooting locally and "Travelling Trap" I never heard of even one instance of a break-action shotgunner shooting him/herself in the foot.

Now, if the shotgun isn't broke open...all bets are off.

 

[Pete D.]

Toes

guns at the time, but I get the distinct impression that not twenty years ago even Americans were blase about muzzle sweeps

Not where I was shooting. I remember a careless moment about 30 years ago when I moved to rack a shotgun behind the shooting point. I swept the gun - open - past the line and had a range officer right in my face in no time. Never did that again.
Pete

 

[grampajack]

If you think it's limited to shotgun shooters, then you need to come down to the local outdoor ranges here. The things I've seen...oh my goodness.

 

[HJ857]

I agree with grampajack. My range hosts a lot of black powder cartridge events. Those folks are the worst by a mile. And they think they're very safe shooters too. Casual observation would make you think that sweeping your muzzle across everyone every 30 minutes is a requirement. I've also see a whole pile of NDs too.

I won't even go in if they're present anymore. I just turn my car around and leave.

 

[HetchHetchy]

I agree with grampajack. My range hosts a lot of black powder cartridge events. Those folks are the worst by a mile. And they think they're very safe shooters too. Casual observation would make you think that sweeping your muzzle across everyone every 30 minutes is a requirement. I've also see a whole pile of NDs too.

I won't even go in if they're present anymore. I just turn my car around and leave.

I shoot BP muzzleloaders competitively. Those that I shoot with are quite safe. I think the only time I was warned by an RO was when I was beginning and I dry-balled my rifle.

At the range I shoot at, one is required to remove the rifle's nipple and feed the powder in at the line, replace nipple and hopefully shoot out lead ball. I was doing the work at my bench and was told to do it on the line. Since then, no problems.

I wouldn't shoot in an environment where people were sweeping others every 30 seconds. Just too dangerous.

 

[HetchHetchy]

I shot a lot of trap when I was younger, 100, 200 or more rounds in an evening were common. Resting a broke open BT99 on a toe was the norm, mostly as a way to give the upper body a break between targets. In all those years shooting locally and "Travelling Trap" I never heard of even one instance of a break-action shotgunner shooting him/herself in the foot.

Now, if the shotgun isn't broke open...all bets are off.

What would it take to carry along a small piece of carpet or foam rubber? The sign value of placing a gun's muzzle on one's foot during competition is pretty bad -- whether the action is open or not. I suspect the practice began with older and/or more out of shape shooters. Not something I would ever do myself.

In the case of toy guns, I never let my kids stick the muzzles in their mouths or point at others. Bad habit and terrible sign value.

 

[Milkmaster]

What would it take to carry along a small piece of carpet or foam rubber? The sign value of placing a gun's muzzle on one's foot during competition is pretty bad -- whether the action is open or not. I suspect the practice began with older and/or more out of shape shooters. Not something I would ever do myself.

Those pads exist and are even magnetic so they stay on the barrel until you step on them and pull the barrel away. Most shooters I know eventually go away from those and use the toe pad on their shoe. Been shooting trap for years. Unless you are shooting, the bolt is open or the shotgun is broke open and empty until your turn. I feel safer about not getting shot at the trap range than a lot of other places I go. I also do not know any trap shooters with toes missing.

 

[HetchHetchy]

Those pads exist and are even magnetic so they stay on the barrel until you step on them and pull the barrel away. Most shooters I know eventually go away from those and use the toe pad on their shoe. Been shooting trap for years. Unless you are shooting, the bolt is open or the shotgun is broke open and empty until your turn. I feel safer about not getting shot at the trap range than a lot of other places I go. I also do not know any trap shooters with toes missing.

That's true of almost all shooting sports, and yes I know the pads exist. I'm just thinking what would happen at say Camp Perry if someone swept the crowd with an M1A and their excuse was "it's unloaded. See, I even have a chamber flag in place."

 

[cougar1717]

There are a lot of apples to oranges comparisons here as it relates to being muzzle swept.

The first is context, which is a controlled, shotgun competition environment. This isn't like bird hunting with people you don't know or shooting some "skeet" in the backyard with a foot thrower. Actions are open when not shooting. Ammo is loaded only when on the station. I have been to places that would not allow a toe rest. I personally don't like the toe rest because there is a situation where it is possible for a ND, especially with a semi auto or pump. While familiarity breeds contempt, anyone who manages to shoot themselves in the foot, with a shotgun, while playing shotgun games, has failed to both clear the firearm and keep the action open when not shooting.

The second is an apples to apples comparison. A broken O/U, or open pump or semi-auto is incapable of firing. While a pump or semi might cause more alarm since it takes more to acute vision to see the open action, O/U's held around the neck or over the shoulder are easy to see and pose zero risk of firing. This is no different from being muzzle swept at the gun store by a confirmed, empty handgun with the slide open and held on the slide stop. But again, this is in a controlled environment where there are no loaded guns, except the ones in the waistbands of the staff!

 

[azrocks]

There's nothing unusual about this at all.

In shotguning a broken open single or double gun is as good as disassembled for safety. There is no way for the firearm to discharge when broken open as the action is separated from the chamber.

The shotgun community is adamant about the need to keep the firearm broken open until on the line for the safety of the competitors and those watching and judging the competition.

/thread

Oh wait, we're on page 3...

 

[Dazen]

I couldn't agree with you more

 

[Howard Roark]

I'm just thinking what would happen at say Camp Perry if someone swept the crowd with an M1A and their excuse was "it's unloaded. See, I even have a chamber flag in place.

People are swept all day long at Perry with rifles being carried horizontally on rolling stools. It's a crowded heck of a long way from the parking lot to the 200 yard line on Viale and back. Because ECI use is mandatory it is not an issue.

My question is, does anyone that actually shoots competitions or otherwise attends them have an issue with the way weapons are handled ?

 

[HetchHetchy]

/thread

Oh wait, we're on page 3...

Trying to control a thread? The worst trolls of all are those that try to "close" (control) threads with comments like your own.

If a thread bothers you, consider some personal self control and ignore the thread rather posting troll remarks.

 

[kudu]

As a shot-gunner that has in excess of 300,000 shells downrange over the years the muzzle on the foot is the best and easiest way to rest a 10 pound target shotgun. After shooting in an hour and a half 5 man skeet squad not many people want to heft the gun the whole time. The gun is broke open inoperable at that point. When moving with the gun especially an O/U no one will say squat about where the gun is pointed, an autoloader or pump gun we politely ask the shooter to keep the muzzle up at our club. A shooter that has a gun closed will be asked to open it if he is not on the line shooting. These things happen very rarely at our club, and usually it is a new shooter that doesn't know the protocols.

Switch to rifle and pistol shooting, I will know where the muzzles are pointed at all times and be aware as possible to avoid sweeping others. Shotguns, more specifically skeet range people, less so trap and sporting clays, don't have the same mind set, although I see more poor gun handling on the trap range than anywhere else shotgun related. All in all I think shotgun people are about as laid back an easy going as any shooting discipline, and we are very safe. I shoot all types of guns so I am not saying this as someone who only shoots shotguns with a narrow point of view, as opposed to someone criticizing something they appear to not be familiar with.

 

[Tirod]

I see this is still going on -

Next photo you see of armed police guarding airports or Federal buildings in the city, look at where the muzzles are pointing on their long arms. At occupied skyscrapers or at hardened pavement where a ricochet may hit an innocent bystander.

I note the complete absence of discussion about the reality of carrying a loaded firearm and the concentrated focus on he said she said in the thread now. It's not about anything but chest thumping for social rank.

The artificial concept that we never "muzzle" anyone is just that - the reality is we do it regardless. A holstered firearm or one unloaded on a range isn't dangerous. When you have it in your hand is when we all start paying close attention.

Until you distinguish between the two separate situations the discussion is all about exerting your views on someone else. Goes to the extremist title of the thread.

 

[Acera]

I see this is still going on - ......................


................. Goes to the extremist title of the thread.

Best lines yet. And I will add, the extremist views expressed by the thread starter.

The OP has 22 posts here, 17 on in this thread alone. So over 75% of his posts are focusing on this single issue. I would like to hear the back story on why he is trolling this so hard.




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[LivingTheDream]

Clays Don't Bleed

The shooters spend too much time shooting clays and paper. If they actually shot things that bleed, I think they would be more careful. It is a mindset that needs to be taught.

 

[Walkalong]

Since we can't stay civil, we'll call this one asked and answered.