Why is the solution to every one of society's problems, loss of freedom?

Status
Not open for further replies.
Well, my understanding is, water is involved in the making of meth.

Ban water!!! :eek:

Stupidity knows no bounds...

It's like banning cars because of drunk drivers....
 
Why is the solution to every one of society's problems, loss of freedom?

Because, literally, that is all they CAN do.

Liberty cannot be granted by government, only taken away.

The phrase "promote freedom" is a misdirection, it feeds the belief that there is some positive action you can take that somehow causes freedom to BE.

Freedom IS.

If you want to increase freedom, you REDUCE OBSTRUCTIONS TO IT, and thus create a state of Liberty.
 
Slightly OT, but the UK police foiled a major terrorist plot a deay or two ago.

Seem a bunch of terrorists had got hold of about a ton of ammonium nitrate (or similar) fertilizer, and were going to make a huge fertilizer-bomb.

I've already heard calls for fertilizer to only be sold in small quantities / only in large quantities to farmers / anyone buying fertilizer has to have their name etc passed to the police / etc.



I also recently read a letter someone had sent to a magziine saying "Why doesn't the government pass a law banning house prices from rising more than 5% per year". Fortunately I was sitting on the floor at the time, as I literally fell over laughing.
 
"Why doesn't the government pass a law banning house prices from rising more than 5% per year"

They already have, in many urban areas. It's called rent control. Doesn't work to well though. It simultaneously increases demand (by artificially limiting the price) while decreasing the incentive to increase supply. Thus it actually increases the cost of housing in the long run.
 
Ah, so it's as stupid an idea as I thought, but not so stupid some politician hasn't tried it :rolleyes:
 
Suppose the various JBTs mentioned have their way and pseudoephedrine is BANNED from OTC sales.

Prices of Sudafed rise.
Prices of meth rise.
Alternative sources of Sudafed are utilized - like a truckload from Mexico or Canada.

What next, you must carry your prescription at all times? Possession of more than X number of pills is a felony? You must be medically certified (by a visit to the doctor, not a phone-in prescription) that you indeed have a cold or hayfever?

When your cold ends or hayfever season is over, will you be mandated to turn over all remaining pills?

After this legislation fails, as it surely will, what is the next (il)logical step?
 
A large part of our society refuses to take responsibility for their actions and they insist that that a responsible party (the government) be their guardian. Been that way since before WW2 and it will only get worse.
 
All this WoD fiasco makes wonder how much of the endless money that comes off the street is being funneled into congressional pockets? The WoD benefits no one except the bureaucracies put it place to fight it and the Drug Dealers, who without the WoD, would not be making money by the pound.
 
http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/ne...are+accused+of+diverting+pills+to+meth+labs++

Dozens are accused of diverting pills to meth labs
By Matthew Hathaway
Of the Post-Dispatch


Drug investigators in southwest Missouri said Thursday that they had cracked an elaborate crime ring devised to divert bulk quantities of over-the-counter cold pills to illegal methamphetamine labs.

On Wednesday, authorities in Springfield, Mo., unsealed federal drug, weapons and money-laundering indictments against 38 suspects, including at least nine store owners and two wholesale distributors. Authorities allege the targets of these indictments were involved in the illegal sale of cold pills.

Nick Console, an agent with the federal Drug Enforcement Administration in Springfield, called the indictments "the first of their kind in the nation" and said the operation will provide a road map for drug investigators elsewhere.

The case highlights the growing, illegal diversion of pseudoephedrine, the active ingredient in more than 80 over-the-counter cold remedies and an essential ingredient in most of the recipes for meth, a powerful and highly addictive stimulant that has soared in popularity in recent years.

Missouri leads the nation in raids on meth labs and meth-related dumpsites. Recently, the St. Louis area has been a hot spot for meth production.

In Missouri, it's illegal for retailers to sell more than two boxes of the pills to an individual, and Illinois Attorney General Lisa Madigan proposed similar legislation this week. On Monday, Oklahoma Gov. Brad Henry is scheduled to sign the nation's toughest restrictions on pseudoephedrine. The legislation would label most pseudoephedrine cold pills "scheduled" narcotics, sold only at pharmacies and only if customers agree to have their purchases - and their identities - recorded in a statewide database.

The federal indictments - as well as several state charges expected to be filed soon - are the product of a two-year investigation called Operation Ice Palace. The investigation takes its name from a street term for meth, which also is called ice, glass, crystal and crank.

Authorities said the operation exposed dozens of retailers who were knowingly selling enough pseudoephedrine to make hundreds of thousands of meth doses. Those indicted included:

Roy James Hudspeth, 39, vice president and chief executive officer of Handi-Rak Service Inc., who police say made at least $287,000 supplying dozens of retailers with massive quantities of cold pills that were then sold directly to meth cooks.

David Deputy, 51, the owner of a drug paraphernalia shop and body-piercing parlor in Taney County, who police say made more than $900,000 after he started a company dedicated to selling bulk quantities of pseudoephedrine to meth cooks and crooked retailers.

Owners of nine liquor stores, convenience stores and other shops that sold - in some cases - thousands of cold pills to police who had posed as meth cooks.

Fourteen store clerks and nine others who worked for Hudspeth and Deputy.

Todd P. Graves, U.S. attorney for the Western District of Missouri, said the indictments "send a message to all business owners" that his office will prosecute suppliers of meth ingredients as aggressively as meth cooks themselves.

"The legitimate sales of over-the-counter products can't be used as a smokescreen for an illicit black market," Graves said.

Operation Ice Palace revolves around two companies that allegedly supplied large quantities of undocumented pseudoephedrine to a network of dozens of retailers frequented by meth cooks.

Although the DEA tracks legal distribution of the cold pills from manufacturers to retailers, investigators say the two companies got around that federal oversight by keeping separate books and - when pressed by authorities to account for discrepancies - claiming that illegally diverted pills actually were stolen from warehouses or were never received from manufacturers.

Police say they began to suspect the distributors - Handi-Rak, based in Brookline, Mo., and D&D Distributing, of Forsyth, Mo. - after tracking the purchases of some off-brand pseudoephedrine that kept turning up in raids on meth labs.

When suspects told police where they bought the pills, undercover officers visited the stores posing as meth cooks. According to police, most of the stores sold the officers whatever they wanted - even multiple cases containing several thousand cold pills.

For decades, Handi-Rak has supplied motels, convenience stores and other businesses with novelty products, over-the-counter medications and personal hygiene supplies. When the company started, the products were sold on consignment and stored on a single rack, which gave the business its name.

According to police, Hudspeth - the son of the Handi-Rak founder - realized that in southwest Missouri, pseudoephedrine was a hot commodity.

Hudspeth was indicted on charges of conspiracy to distribute pseudoephedrine and three counts of money laundering. Police say he aggressively marketed the cold pills to shops that were popular with meth cooks, and eventually agreed to sell cold pills off the books so retailers could sell large quantities of pills at a premium without drawing any suspicion from police and federal regulators.

When reached by telephone Thursday, Hudspeth said he was aware the company was being investigated, but he denied any wrongdoing. He said he didn't know he was indicted.

According to investigators, Deputy ran an unusual shop called The Castle. Police said the building featured medieval-style ramparts and was surrounded by a moat. An investigator said as many as 20 meth cooks would line up outside The Castle every Thursday to buy cold pills.

State and federal authorities said cold pills sold in bulk on the "gray market" for as much as four times the retail price - a premium meth cooks would pay because it allowed them to spend less time finding ingredients and more time making drugs, police said.

Capt. Tom Jackson, commander of the St. Louis County drug task force, said that drug investigators in this area have a good relationship with most stores that sell the cold pills but that some smaller, independent shops will "buy as much pseudoephedrine as they can and sell to whoever they can for as much as they can."

Reporter Matthew Hathaway
E-mail: [email protected]
Phone: 636-500-4108
 
my first post

:)

If were not going to legalize then we need to start actually sending the druggies to real time

we had a guy busted for manufacturing meth here a few weeks back and all he got was four years...... oh boy

word is he will serve 18 months in rehab unit and be back out on the streets

:confused:
 
Same ol' ploy ain't it? Punish the masses for the crimes of the few ... plus making more and more laws ... ever more making Joe Sixpack into an unwitting criminal... as he endevors to live a ''normal'' life, but inadvertantly keeps ''crossing the line''. It's all again about control.

Here's an example of something sorta similar ... not meth related but ''drug'' related. Iapetus will know this one ....


UK has a cheap (used to be) ..... simple and effective analgesic ... it's called Paracetamol ... and it's always been an OTC substance, also available as branded product for inflated prices!. It's precursor, phenacetin was also available but the paracetamol gives the liver less of a hard time. It's basically, when used as directed, both effective and safe.

However .... too much paracetamol and irreversible liver damage occurs .. take enough and it will kill ... slowly. Needless to say it has been used by suicides .. who take a whole bunch .... often failing but still screwing their livers. Bad choice.

What does Nanny Gov do about it? They stop allowing nice cheap 100 tablet bottles of generic from being sold and instead - limit them by packaging in 16's and 32's (fancy blister packs) .... at vastly increased price!! So, a person can only buy 32 max at a time .... but it is easy to go down a main street and call into three pharmacies and still get near 100!!

So ... nothing much is achieved .. except profiteering, higher costs for all the people who use it and are NOT suicidal.! I mean hell .... car exhaust in a garage is still an option for those bent on self destruction ... so is jumping off a high place.!

Back when I lived over there .. it cost little more than a Dollar for 100 ... it lasted me 6 months and more .. just used for odd headaches etc ..... like thousands of other non-suicidal people.

OK .. no relation to meth but similar principle behind the ''regulation'' ..... total expensive joke. Don't ''they'' remember prohibition?? :rolleyes: .... where there is a will - there is a way ... regardless.
 
If were not going to legalize then we need to start actually sending the druggies to real time

I'm sorry I know I'm new but I take issue with this mentality.

Druggies only exist because of prohibition. Before that they were your next door nieghbors, and prolly still are. During alchohol prohibition if you were running shine to Texarcana you could stop at the local Rexall and pick up a pack of cocaine (legally, over the counter) to "speed you on your way". Druggies is a demonization of adults choosing their favorite intoxicant over others much like the term "gun nut" describes an adult choosing 50 different guns over the 2 currently legal.

Not to get too far off topic. If you create an artificial market that is so lucrative that people will kill over small shares of it and literally amass empires from the proceeds, then offering a hundred more years to the sentece if they get caught is futile (odds are, regardless of what CNN would have you believe, they won't get caught).

You hear everyday about the guy they caught bringing 80 pounds of weed from Mexico hidden in his gas tank. Want to know why he tried? Because 80X1600=120,000 that's 2 years wages for well paid midclass folks for three weeks worth of work front to back. I'd take the risk 3 times for the return, because what you don't hear about is the guys selling 400 pounds a year and stay under radar who retire in Barbados after 3 years, comfy forever. I'm not glorifying what they do or even saying it's right.

Were the evil drugs not illegal we could use a tenth of the money we spend on combating their spread (which is an exercise in futility) to help the REAL addicts who want to get clean. Instead we "create" addicts by offering the choice of rehab or jail to first offenders.

Drugs are not a criminal problem any more than guns are, drugs are a medical problem, much like alchoholism, you treat the addict once, maybe twice with extinuating circumstances and then you abandon them. Should they commit crimes against society put them UNDER the jail.

Drug users are by and large a peaceful group who want to get high and admire the state they are in. Don't think I don't know some are violent, just like drunks and otherwise law abiding gun owners who catch their wives ... you know. Punish those who break sensible laws and not everyone else because they might.

/rant off

Oh yeah and this article reeks of hilarity.
 
Nick Console, an agent with the federal Drug Enforcement Administration...said the operation will provide a road map for drug investigators elsewhere.
I believe that. How lovely. :rolleyes:
... Operation Ice Palace ...
oooOOOOooooh ... catchy name.

People persist in falling for the notion that there's some intention of fixing a drug problem. That is not the goal. The goal is to build empires and enhance careers, and it's working very well.
 
Ban water!!!

But water is made from hydrogen and oxygen! the solution? Ban everything on the periodic table!

Ok it's not funny anymore but hey.:D
 
What next, you must carry your prescription at all times? Possession of more than X number of pills is a felony? You must be medically certified (by a visit to the doctor, not a phone-in prescription) that you indeed have a cold or hayfever?
Actually, in Washington state, possession of more than three 48-pill packages of pseudoephedrine is already illegal.

Basically, they've made it illegal for my large family to have enough cold medicine to last a week.

pax
 
Welcome to the forum, Foe[H]ammer. :) I agree with everything you said, except this:
Were the evil drugs not illegal we could use a tenth of the money we spend on combating their spread (which is an exercise in futility) to help the REAL addicts who want to get clean.
I don't want to have any of my money forcibly taken from me to supposedly help some drug addict. People should pay for their own medical care.

MR
 
My take on this

Perhaps I should be entered in a database when I buy ammo. Perhaps the FBI should pay me a visit if I mail order a whole case.

I would be against restricting pseudephedrine, which I use, because it redefines what prescription restrictions mean. I might use steroid spray, but I don't want to pay for it ($$$), nor do I need to pay a doctor to tell me I need it.

Suggestion:
If they need to restrict sales of pseudephedrine, then they will need to buy out the patent on steroid spray and make it available OTC at modest prices. I am not aware of significant contraindications that would require a doctor's oversight. The price is protected and nothing else, seems to me. If someone gets nosebleeds from overuse, they should know what to do, right?
 
Couple of points and a couple of questions.

P95 is absolutely right about the paracetamol thing. I used to go through quite a lot and it got more expensive at the time that changed if I recall correctly. Is the method of choice for the para-suicide over here as well as the suicide. Of course it may take a reasonable amount to kill you, but a overdose of a fairly small amount is going to make you pretty ill as it recycles through the liver. So even 32 is quite a lot. Silly law easily circumvented as P95 points out.

As soon as something bad happens the first call is for more legislation - which leads me to my first question - when you are out on the street in America how many laws are you potentially subject to? Anyone know the figure?

Secondly, for the chemists, from the name pseudoephidrine I assume it it like ephidrine in some way. Can ephidrine be used for meth production? If I recall correctly ephidrine was banned recently wasn't it? Could be way wrong.
 
Gotta be thousands--figure all the federal laws, plus the laws in your particular state, plus your county laws, plus any municipal ordinances if you're in an incorporated area.

We bandy around the figure of 20,000 gun laws nationwide, but that includes state laws so you're not subject to all of them at the same time. It's also out of date, I suspect, as I've been hearing it since junior high. Over ten years, now.

I wonder how one would go about finding that figure. I've never even thought about it.
 
I don't want to have any of my money forcibly taken from me to supposedly help some drug addict. People should pay for their own medical care.

Fair 'nuff, I don't think you should have to donate to a cause, any cause, you don't want to.

I'd be happy to pony up (having been through rehab on my own dime, man that was expensive) but I wasn't suggesting you be forced to. I was more illustrating the cost difference than trying to rob you through tax dollars.

Sorry I wasn't clear. :)
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top