1stmarine
Member
Single digits SD is great but any number close to 10 from either side is going to be very good that is what one normally gets from Federal Gold Medal SMKs and Black Hills that are classic match winning loads.
Unfortunately collecting dope is not a thread. I wouldn't even start that thread because I can't trust the crowd on here to even agree that 300y isnt long range. pssh, regular rifle qual for the m16/m4 is 500m. Thats not long range either.competent instruction helps. but ballistic calculators are pretty good these days. as long as you have a 100 yard zero and know your bullet and MV, you can get on target at 1000 pretty dang fast. (unless you live somewhere with switchy winds and are shooting a 308 haha)
to be perfectly honest, it's been years since i collected "data" to determine dope. that's probably a whole nother thread.
I'm not recommending everyone go from 100 to 1000 yards right away. just that you don't have to spend days or hundreds of rounds at short ranges before moving back to long. my experience taking new shooters to the range and teaching classes is consistent over many years that i can let them shoot my gun and give them a wind call and they will instantly hit targets at 1000+. in fact, that's normally what i do, since they usually don't own their own stuff yet and i'm helping them pick out what they want. they tend to enjoy hitting long range targets the most.
There is simply no advantage to having a ballistically superior cartridge for LEARNING long distance. It just increases the size of the range you need to have access to in order to learn. Shooters would be well served to spend lots of time on a .22 trainer followed by a .223.
This was the original statement, the one I disagreed with.
Perhaps the OP should have stated his opposition differently.
Single digits SD is great but any number close to 10 from either side is going to be very good that is what one normally gets from Federal Gold Medal SMKs and Black Hills that are classic match winning loads.
i've read this like 3 times and i can't even figure out what you're trying to say.Unfortunately collecting dope is not a thread. I wouldn't even start that thread because I can't trust the crowd on here to even agree that 300y isnt long range. pssh, regular rifle qual for the m16/m4 is 500m. Thats not long range either.
As far as computers go. Getting close enough and correcting fire is simply just plinking around and turning a turret until you get on target, for that moment of that day. That doesn't negate the short range work up for more serious shooting. 100y zero. check tracking/run a tall target test. Get a correction factor if needed. I mean with like a 2% error in tracking, that would put you at 1.02 mils per rev. Dial in 10 mils for said drop...your not actually at 10 mils now are you. We are at 10.2. If your just plinking the target then its not anything youre going to notice, but if you are 2/10 of a mil off, that is about 7.2 inches off target at 1000y. Chrono. Use ballistic software, get solution for 400y. Shoot a group at a three inch square. Probably fail. Go to calculator tune it. Try again. Get closer. Move to 600y same thing, then 500y. Then 10in at least at 1000y. Same thing. Or some variation of this. It can be a painful amount of work and might not be needed to physically shoot at distance, but 1000y isnt that far. Its not as people imagine it to be. Its simply the beginning for shooting further out. Its when spin drift starts to be noticeable but not sever. Its when the legendary coriolus becomes noticeable...ish..sort of. It's when complex wind environments will become crucial to read. No minute of man at that distance.
second, it is slightly more difficult to shoot a 308 win at distance than a 6.5/6mm and I am wanting to learn the art of precision rifle shooting. I want to hunt with this rifle as well, and a 308win has more energy at hunting ranges, <500yds, more like 300 and in. finally, I expect 5,000+ rounds of barrel life out of my 308win.
with ample barrel life and plentiful load data, I do not worry about round counts. compare that to a 6mm creedmore, 1200rds and you are usually done for competitions.
168g sierra at 2650 fps is 27" of wind drift at 500 with a 10mph wind
140g berger at 2800 fps is 15" of wind drift at 500 with a 10mph wind (almost half as much)
another way to look at that is 2.7" vs 1.5" of drift for every MPH you are wrong on the wind call.
At 1000y sure ignore spin drift and coriolus. Put when you shoot further and the target is small not do not ignore. I'm sure im not best explainer without giving training aids and examples and charts. However my explaining skills are not whats in question. Its that there is a pletra of people on here who are "shooting long range" when nothing has been defined. Who's techniques are slightly questionable. I've never seen a chrono get the exact data to line up ever. Before software, everything was written down anyways. For a newbie, I THINK that that is the way to go to learn the why's of the science but thats neither here nor there. The BC multi bc thing like sierra does is A way to do that, but over all a g7 bc should follow the behavior of the bullet past the transonic, if using a g1 then just be aware of it. You dont know what tuning im talking about because nobody here knows much of how to get first round impacts at extreme distance. IT SOUNDS like you all are just shooting around the target until you hit it. "Close enough" is what im getting from it. Now if some of you say, i just like to go to the range, and plink at long range...(to me and a lot of people in the E/LR community, would agree that long range being 600-1000y is ELR being beyond that) and see if I hit said gong, then sure, but just because you have shot at long range doesn make anyone KNOW anything, or determine how experienced or how good they are. If people are getting heated over caliber choice and what works best, then sounds like theres some experience trying to be invoked, and it doesnt seem to be much. I dont agree with varminter or whatever is his screen name on a lot of things, but at least he knows the science behind a lot of this. As a sniper, we would do it one way. The civilian competitive world of long range, to extreme long range shooting, they get dope in another way, with more science, and more information, and different equipment, for a different purpose. For hunting there is a line between the two. You are not limited to a .308, a .300 wim mag, a .338 lm or a .50 bmg. You are not generally limited to particular loads. For precision long range, you are shooting a small target a long range.that is not true at all. the advantage to shooting a 6 or 6.5mm over a 308 for learning is less recoil
1. very few people can pick up their trace with a 308 even with a brake because of recoil and because the rainbow trajectory leaves the scope FOV
2. you need a lot of repetitions and more recoil is always worse. new 308 shooters will start flinching a long time before 6mm shooters.
yes, it is precisely opposite. recreational shooters can do anything they want and who really cares? but people shooting something important should choose the best tool for the job and 308 hasn't been that for a decade. it's not even the most well rounded. it's old and better things have come along, and professionals are switching.
if i'm not mistaken, litz states a 5 SD is what you need to hold the x ring in F class. if you have a 10 SD, you're going to need bigger targets.
also, does anybody shoot FGM SMK anymore? sure they were the shizznazizzle 15 years ago. i haven't seen anyone win a major match with them lately.
i've read this like 3 times and i can't even figure out what you're trying to say.
look, it's this simple: use a good scope/rifle/ammo. get a good 100 yard zero. use a magnetospeed or lab radar to find your velocity. use a good calculator (shooter, AB, etc) and input the rifle characteristics correctly. the data you get out should reliably track the path of the bullet within a tenth or two out to the transonic zone. the tenth or two variation will be due to averaging of velocity data. if you input more BC for various velocities, it will be more accurate across the whole trajectory. i don't know what tuning you're talking about. and ignore spin drift and coriolus.
no, it is a lot more difficult to shoot a 308 at distance than a 6/6.5. just look at any wez analysis. your hit probability is way lower.
it cracks me up that in the handgun forums everybody understands shot placement trumps energy. a well placed 9mm is way more effective than a wild 45acp. but for some reason, people seem to forget that when it comes to rifles.
i'd encourage you to use a ballistic calculator and model your wind correction error.
168g sierra at 2650 fps is 27" of wind drift at 500 with a 10mph wind
140g berger at 2800 fps is 15" of wind drift at 500 with a 10mph wind (almost half as much)
another way to look at that is 2.7" vs 1.5" of drift for every MPH you are wrong on the wind call.
if it's a 11 mph wind and you called it at an 8 , that's 8.1" vs 4.5"
according to chuck hawks, a large sized deer is 10-12" vital zone. if you aimed perfectly at the center but were 3mph off on your wind call, with a 308, you'd be 2.1" out of the vital zone. if you took that shot with a 6.5cm you'd be 1.5" inside the vital zone.
Add to this, I just remember what i was thinking of, is there will be variance related to the bullets form factor. Does the g7 high bc bullet have a high bc because it is a low drag light bullet or is it heavy and suffer during velocity loss...but still have low drag. It needs to line up with your computer.There some internal ballistics to be concerned about that can vary this, AS WELL as external performance. However determining the form factor is another numeric value added to determine this based on bullet. Not necessary? Well, im not the one that is close...a 1 or 2/10s....The BC multi bc thing like sierra does is A way to do that, but over all a g7 bc should follow the behavior of the bullet past the transonic, if using a g1 then just be aware of it..
it cracks me up that in the handgun forums everybody understands shot placement trumps energy. a well placed 9mm is way more effective than a wild 45acp
well, then you've never shot a match recently, because EVERYONE uses this method. mine always lines up.I've never seen a chrono get the exact data to line up ever.
here's a link to my review of the PRS ELR match in Wyoming where I came in 7th place using a 6.5x47 Lapua (slower than a creedmoor) where everyone else in the top ten was shooting magnums like 300norma and 300winmag. look at the list of targets (45 of them past 1200 yards), sizes and distances i provided to get a feel for a real practical ELR competition (as opposed to Ko2M). https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...warning-really-big-pics.808439/#post-10331271You dont know what tuning im talking about because nobody here knows much of how to get first round impacts at extreme distance. IT SOUNDS like you all are just shooting around the target until you hit it. "Close enough" is what im getting from it. Now if some of you say, i just like to go to the range, and plink at long range...(to me and a lot of people in the E/LR community, would agree that long range being 600-1000y is ELR being beyond that) and see if I hit said gong, then sure, but just because you have shot at long range doesn make anyone KNOW anything, or determine how experienced or how good they are.
sure, a decade ago. they're changing. so should you.As a sniper, we would do it one way.
i've met him many times. took 5th place out of 200+ at the last sniper hide cup i shot in. humorously, i'd suggest YOU talk to him and he'll probably tell you to ignore spin drift and coriolis.Want to talk to Frank from sniperhide? Go on there look him up. He's a dick,
yeah? what instructor have you taken classes from and would recommend?If any of this is confusing to anyone, and if over simplified...im telling you, you have no idea, and should consider a REAL long range shooting class.
i've done all that. did it for a very long time. nobody does it like that anymore.Want to be a sniper, you will learn data books. You will learn how to use a master dope chart and how to use formulas to adjust dope.
again, nobody uses these anymore.As a civilian, a mildot master can work wonders if you are math deficient.
last year i shot 10 PRS matches and had 8 top 15% finishes, including the ELR match. You don't do that without getting a very high percentage of first round hits at long range.If this doesn't sound like you, maybe you are just a person that shoots at targets at long range...not a long range shooter. Maybe your not as interested as you thought you were.
David and I tied at the heatstroke open PRS match in oklahoma last year. care to ask him if he is using a data book? hahahahaDavid Tubb. another guy to look into.
That in and of itself seems like a hindrance to learning as it would mask error in the shooters wind "call".
I think that's why he wrote LEARNING vs learning or leaving the word out of the sentence all together.
while your talking to frank, ask him about cold bore shots. hahahaCold barrel, usually the shot that matters is a thing, and there can be poi shifts especially if you zero'd correctly.
some of us don't shoot just for enjoyment. some of us shoot to develop a capability and to maximize the effectiveness.My take is this. Shoot what works well for you (function, cost, enjoyment, etc.). If .308win works well for you, Great. If .308win mag works well for you, Great. If 6.5 cm, G, Swiss, or some wildcat works well for you, Great.
There is no reason to tell people to stop using anything...if as the OP stipulated, the reason for shooting is ENJOYMENT!
if i'm not mistaken, litz states a 5 SD is what you need to hold the x ring in F class. if you have a 10 SD, you're going to need bigger targets.
also, does anybody shoot FGM SMK anymore? sure they were the shizznazizzle 15 years ago. i haven't seen anyone win a major match with them lately.
things start well but then the wind pics up and then .. you know.I'm truly shocked that this thread turned into another urinating contest. Shocked I tell you!
Agreed. And I think taliv's argument--that the .308 has been displaced as "top dog"--is exactly right. I have nowhere near the experience he does. I took some classes at Storm Mountain using a .308. I'd have done better with the .260 I'm shooting today.
For the record, I still have and shoot a couple of .308s. Like 'em. But I'll give them up before I give up my .260s.
My first custom rig was a .308, too. Sold it to buy my .260. I just think it's interesting that we live at a time when laser range finders, portable ballistic calculators, pressure sensors (altimeters) built into cell phones, arguably better scopes, and new designed-for-purpose cartridges are revolutionizing (maybe over stated) long range shooting. It's just a cool time to be a shooter!