Why no .357 Magnum ACP?

[igotta40]

In my 35 short years experience shooting, reading and researching all the various handgun calibers and firearms out there, it appears the .357 magnum has been king for LEO work.

That being said, I'm not a LEO but the trend over the last few decades has definitely been a move away from revolvers to semi autos for higher capacity.

Given the available common and standard offerings, 9mm, .40 S&W and .45acp as the 'go to' semi auto LEO calibers, not to ignore the .357 Sig, my question becomes, why has there not been a push for development of a .357 Magnum rimless?

I get it about shot placement and all that, so accuracy and terminal ballistics aside, what about a .357 Magnum in a high capacity semi auto?

Is the OAL too long for a magazine that's a fit in the hand? Other reasons?

I'm no expert, it's just a thought.... So please don't bash me for being ignorant...

 

[MistWolf]

Research the history of the 38 Super and the stretched, hot-rodded 9mm that became popular for IPSC

 

[Snyper]

There have been 357 semi's but they aren't as reliable as 9's. 45's or 40's

The grips are too large for many hands, and they have lower capacities.

If it were truly a good idea, it would have been done

 

[rcmodel]

A rimless .357 mag in a pistol magazine would be to long for many people to get their hand around.

Guns have been made that chamber the rimmed .357 Mag, like the a desert eagle.

But they are just too huge for everyday carry.

As has been proven over & over again through the years.

The .357 Mag is a full 1/3" longer then the .45 ACP, 10mm, and .38 Super.

And those have proven to be the longest practical length in today's unisex military and police forces.
That is why the 9mm and .40 S&W have taken over the police & military market.

rc

 

[herrwalther]

.357 Sig is probably the closest the .357 Mag will ever get to a semi-auto, minus a few novelty pistols like the Desert Eagle in 357 and the Coonan 1911. The problem with .357 SIG and .38 Super is they don't have much performance over 9mm +p+.

 

[Inebriated]

357 SIG is close enough for social work.

Glock 32 (4" barrel) can spit an Underwood 125gr 357 SIG load around 1568fps (AmmoTest on YouTube shows this. He also shows 1481 from a Glock 33 with a 3.42" barrel). If you can show me a 4" 357 Magnum that can send a 125gr load appreciably faster, I'll be impressed.

Of course the magnum has the edge in potential, but the potential is rarely realized in service-sized guns.

 

[CZ9shooter]

I was under the impression that 357sig was, in fact, developed specifically to offer 357mag performance in an auto loader. Obviously it is a little ways off, especially when dealing with heavier bullets, but I would still call it "similar" performance.

 

[Safetychain]

It just so happened today that I saw one of these. A little search of today's email:

http://www.wideopenspaces.com/ever-see-357-magnum-1911-pistol-video/?utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_term=WOS%20Main%20Production&utm_campaign=WOS_NewDaily_%207.9%20-%20wos%20sup%20PA%2C%20TX%2C%20western%2C%20CO%2C%20CA

 

[rcmodel]

At the time, the 125 grain .357 Mag was considered the best man-stopper available.

The .357 SIG was developed to offer the same performance with 125 grain bullets in an auto the size of a 9mm pistol.

It never stood a chance of duplicating the .357 Mag revolver with heavier bullets.

rc

 

[Thermactor]

Regarding something that would approximate 357 performance in a rimless case, I think the 9x25 Dillon was good, sadly it didn't take off.

 

[Dr.Rob]

.357 Automag was a thing for a short time. Only available in one oversized overpriced handgun.

See this thread: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=760770

 

[TimSr]

Between the 9mm, 38Super, and 357 sig, I don't think the market has room for another cartridge in that group.

 

[HexHead]

.38 Super was designed to be the semi-auto equivalent of .357 Magnum. No need to reinvent the wheel.

 

[jmr40]

For one thing 357 mag performance has always fallen far short of it's claims from barrels 4" and shorter. I'd say 38 Super and 357 Sig easily match real world 357 mag performance and 9mm+P comes awfully close with bullets lighter than 150 gr. 10mm and 40 S&W match or beat 357 mag with bullets 150 gr-200 gr. No need to have to deal with more recoil and blast of the 357 round when there are better options.

The only advantage 357 mag has is the ability to shoot bullets 110-200 gr from the same gun.

 

[reddog81]

My experiences on the subject

I wanted to buy something along the lines of a 357 auto-loader earlier this year. I looked at the Coonan, Desert Eagle, a Colt in 38 Super. I ended up getting a Colt Delta Elite.

While the 10mm is obviously not a 38 caliber bullet I felt it was the best available option for a reasonable price that has comparable ballistics to a .357 magnum. I probably would have went for the Coonan if price wasn't an issue but it would have cost $400 to $500 more. The Desert Eagle is a huge gun and overbuilt for .357 IMO, and the 38 Super I looked at didn't seem as well put together as the Delta Elite.

Hopefully sometime in the next year or so I can try out a Coonan because I am still interested in getting one, of course now that I have a 10mm the Glock model 40 in 10mm sounds like an awesome gun with 15 round capacity and it would cost half of what a Coonan does.

Sorry for the thread drift but I wanted to share my thoughts.

 

[22-rimfire]

I don't see much point in a "357 Magnum ACP" cartridge since we have 9mm, 40 S&W and 45 ACP. I would never buy such an caliber.

 

[Delmar]

The 38 Super Auto pre-dated the 357 Magnum by a few years, having come out in the late 1920s and the S&W in 1934

 

[highlander 5]

There was a 9 mm rimless cartridge that matched the 357 but it was chambered in the Wildey semi auto pistol. The closest round I can think of to the 357 is the 9x23 Win and it will work in a standard 1911 frame but it runs at 55,000 psi

 

[mavracer]

.38 Super was designed to be the semi-auto equivalent of .357 Magnum. No need to reinvent the wheel.

You have it backward the 357 was developed to get the 38 supers penatration in the wheelguns of the typical LEO of the day.

 

[ATLDave]

Agreed with those who say that matching/near-matching performance for almost any particular load can be had in existing semi-auto cartridges. For lighter bullets, .38 super, .357 Sig, and even over-SAAMI 9mm can pretty well duplicate thing. Folks who shoot USPSA/IPSC open-class guns in 9mm major are generally shooting the equivalent of .357 rounds jammed into a 9mm case!

Heavier bullet loads are tough to duplicate in .355-.357 diameters, but can generally be replicated by .40/10mm diameter cartridges in stout guns. The marginally lower sectional density may be a SLIGHT detriment on long-range shooting and pure penetration, but terminal effect in "social situations" is probably at least as good, if not better.

 

[entropy]

It was made around the turn of the century. 1900 not 2000. It was called the .351 Winchester, and was a popular LE rifle in it's day. It was never chambered in a semi-auto pistol, though, only the M1907 Winchester rifle. There was an experiment with it in the Thompson SMG, but never went beyond that.

 

[jhb]

9x23 is pretty close....not perfect, but a fierce round.

 

[Tallball]

The older 38 rounds were black powder.

38 special had to be made longer so that no one would try to stick it into an older weaker gun.

357 had to made longer than 38 special so that no one would try to stick it into an older weaker gun.

Thus, according to my FiL (he reloads and I don't), the 357 magnum case is actually much longer than it needs to be. If you were going to make it rimless for use in a semi-automatic, I would think that you would make the case SIGnificantly shorter as well.

 

[cougar1717]

why has there not been a push for development of a .357 Magnum rimless?

It was attempted at least twice without much success:
The 357 Automag as was mentioned and the 9mm Winchester Magnum.

IMHO, the magnum autoloader has always been a tough sell, except for the late 70's to early 80's (Deathwish movie) and the present run of the Desert eagle (too many movies to list here). The issues really haven't changed.
The pistols are physically large - the grips are sized for people who wear extra large gloves or bigger. The grip length is larger than the average person's hand as has been mentioned.
They are heavy - additional weight of the gas-recoil system like the Wildey and DE. They're expensive, even though they are usually made very well.
In my mind, by the time I would drop $1,200 on the bargain end to $2,500 or $3,000 on the custom end for a magnum pistol, I would want it in a more powerful caliber than anything 357/9mm. Which is why the Wildey calibers, 45 win mag, and 44 automag at least have some sort of niche following in autoloader handgun hunting. The 357/9mm magnum auto market is pretty inactive, however, where you see usefulness is in single shot hunting firearms, like a T/C contender in 357 maximum, but that is rimmed.

 

[Swing]

Beyond the .38 Super and .357 Sig, there is/was the 9×23mm Winchester, 9×25mm Super Auto G, and 9×25mm Dillon.