Why no .357 Magnum ACP?

[Thermactor]

Oh, obligatory Thermactor reply: .357 magnum performance out of a 9MM, you seek?

Seek the Federal 9BPLE round. It's got what guns crave. It's got electrolytes!

 

[judgedelta]

I did see a .38 special 1911 on Gunbroker the other day. Looked like it had spent a couple of years under the seat of someone's truck and they wanted right at a grand for it. Was a Colt.

 

[ThomasT]

Thus, according to my FiL (he reloads and I don't), the 357 magnum case is actually much longer than it needs to be.

No its not. You can load the 357 case right to the base of the bullet with slow burning powder and get the top performance you will get from that case size. If the 357 case was too long then the 357 maximum case would have never been invented so it could increase the powder capacity over the 357 case. Your FIL needs to do a little more research.

I doubt that the typical service length barrel of 4" for most autos could burn all the powder of a heavy loaded 357 anyway. So there is really no point in a rimless 357 auto round for a handgun. A semi auto carbine is another story.

A 30 carbine sized rifle in 357 would make some sense. But then again most would pass it by in favor of the AR in 223.

 

[Tallball]

Ratshooter, thank you for the info. I must have misunderstood my FiL.

 

[ThomasT]

Hey Tall I hope I helped. The 357 came out just as slower pistol powders were developed (actually fast rifle) powders and the case was able to hold enough 2400 to make a worthwhile velocity increase. There was a lot of development at the time and I may not have all the facts correct or straight but slower powders took advantage of that longer case.

The 38 special case was sized for a charge of black powder for more power over the 38 long colt and it was developed just as smokeless powder came on line. And the 38 case is way bigger than needed for a fast pistol powder like bullseye and that may be what your FIL is thinking.

Anyway the 357 rimless would be a bust in a service gun like the OP asked about. But I have wondered myself why a rimless rifle round in 357 hasn't been developed. The load data is already there. A revolver with moon clips would make a companion gun and case length would't be a problem. Lots of excellent bullets available.

But with the shortages and problems we have at this time I don't think the world is ready for a new round. Its just too much trouble to gear up for and 357 mag carbines are available that take the standard case. It least they used to be. My Marlin 357 is my most favored gun but its really limited on what it can do. But for a survival gun it is tops as long as I can have my bullet molds and reloading kit. It and a shotgun would serve all my needs.

 

[jerkface11]

9x25 Dillon fits the bill.

 

[mongoslow]

my SR 40 loaded with any of these loads will match or surpass a 4" .357 mag with a 125 gr jhp and with my spare mag gives me 31 rounds, now if you want to get on out in the 6-8" barrels then the game swings the other way except for round count,

Round Type Weight Muzzle Energy ft·lb Muzzle Velocity ft/sec.
40 SW JHP 135 675 1500
40 SW Gold Dot HP 155 582 1300
40 SW XTP HP 155 582 1300
40 SW Gold Dot HP 165 528 1200

 

[Lycidas Janwor]

It just so happened today that I saw one of these. A little search of today's email:

http://www.wideopenspaces.com/ever-see-357-magnum-1911-pistol-video/?utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_term=WOS%20Main%20Production&utm_campaign=WOS_NewDaily_%207.9%20-%20wos%20sup%20PA%2C%20TX%2C%20western%2C%20CO%2C%20CA

Cool!

 

[CapnMac]

All this and no mention of the .45super or .45mag?

To the OP's qiestion, the .357sig is as close to a .357acp as will likely be (other than the 9x27 or the .45mag in a straight-wall design, that is).

We did have a lot of talk about recreating the 125gr .357mag loads, but, I note we did not much talk about replicating the 158gr .357mag loads. The 'FBI' load with a 158gr 9x19 was a fad for a bit, but has since wandered into obscurity (probably reasonably so). Probably the only way to get that heavy-bullet perfromance is the original 10mm round.

 

[bullzeye8]

I know you can put 9x23 winchester in a standard 1911 and I think it is just as powerful as a .357 mag.

 

[Lycidas Janwor]

Isn't the .357sig simply a .40S&W casing necked down to a 9mm?

 

[herrwalther]

Isn't the .357sig simply a .40S&W casing necked down to a 9mm?

Yes. It was designed to mimic the loading of 125gr .357 Mag out of a 4" barrel without sacrificing ammo capacity or the benefits of being a semi-auto.

 

[45_auto]

my SR 40 loaded with any of these loads will match or surpass a 4" .357 mag with a 125 gr jhp and with my spare mag gives me 31 rounds, now if you want to get on out in the 6-8" barrels then the game swings the other way except for round count,

Round Type Weight Muzzle Energy ft·lb Muzzle Velocity ft/sec.
40 SW JHP 135 675 1500
40 SW Gold Dot HP 155 582 1300
40 SW XTP HP 155 582 1300
40 SW Gold Dot HP 165 528 1200

Must be some good stuff that you're drinking or smoking!

You have one load (135 grain) that is competitive with .357's out of a 3" barrel. The rest of your loads aren't even close to .357's out of a 3" barrel, much less a 4" barrel.

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=102

1. 3 inch S&W J frame

a. Item 19A/20-180gr. Hard cast LFN = 1302 fps (678 ft-lb)
b. Item 19B/20-170gr. JHC (jacketed hollow cavity) = 1299 fps (637 ft-lb)
c. Item 19C/20-158gr. Jacketed Hollow Point = 1398 fps (686 ft-lb)
d. Item 19D/20-125gr. Jacketed Hollow Point = 1476 fps (605 ft-lb)

2. 4 inch S&W L frame Mt. Gun

a. Item 19A/20-180gr. Hard cast LFN = 1375 fps (756 ft-lb)
b. Item 19B/20-170gr JHC = 1411 fps (752 ft-lb)
c. Item 19C/20-158gr. Jacketed Hollow Point = 1485 fps (774 ft-lb)
d. Item 19D/20-125gr. Jacketed Hollow Point = 1603 fps (713 ft-lb)

 

[Monac]

I know you can put 9x23 winchester in a standard 1911 and I think it is just as powerful as a .357 mag.

This is my understanding too. The energy figures for 9x23mm are almost exactly the same as for 357 Magnum. But I think hardly anyone offers guns for it.

 

[entropy]

The older 38 rounds were black powder.

38 special had to be made longer so that no one would try to stick it into an older weaker gun.

357 had to made longer than 38 special so that no one would try to stick it into an older weaker gun.

Thus, according to my FiL (he reloads and I don't), the 357 magnum case is actually much longer than it needs to be. If you were going to make it rimless for use in a semi-automatic, I would think that you would make the case SIGnificantly shorter as well.

Then why were my Blue Dot 125 gr HP loads compressed?

 

[Richard Head]

9x25 Dillon fits the bill.

Too loud, too much muzzle blast and a poor selection of bullets maxing out at 147 grains makes the 9x25 Dillon a poor 357 magnum replacement.

my SR 40 loaded with any of these loads will match or surpass a 4" .357 mag with a 125 gr jhp and with my spare mag gives me 31 rounds, now if you want to get on out in the 6-8" barrels then the game swings the other way except for round count,

Round Type Weight Muzzle Energy ft·lb Muzzle Velocity ft/sec.
40 SW JHP 135 675 1500
40 SW Gold Dot HP 155 582 1300
40 SW XTP HP 155 582 1300
40 SW Gold Dot HP 165 528 1200

Lay off the drugs

 

[herrwalther]

Off the rounds we have discussed as a "replacement" to .357 Magnum in semi-autos, only 357Sig is remotely popular enough in production guns to be viable. The other rounds like 9x25 and 9x23 are far more exotic calibers with ammo that you can't pick off your local big box store shelf. 357 magnum has been popular for decades, any caliber designed to replace it would be fighting an uphill battle against an already popular caliber.

 

[TwinReverb]

In my opinion, first, there's no "king" among the pistol calibers. As it currently stands, i think there are enough 9mm-ish calibers (.380, 9mm, 357mag, .38, 9x18, .357sig) that we really don't need another solution looking for a problem.

Look at how 45gap is doing. Not well. Great idea in my opinion, but the market is flooded with handgun calibers.

Sorry to disappoint you, but that's what i think the reality of handgun calibers is.

 

[Lycidas Janwor]

I think that ammo technology has advanced so much over the last 20 years that it's really difficult to prove one particular caliber of pistol bullet is superior to another because there are just so many situations where one excels over another. For example the good ole 9mm might be relatively small and light but you can carry more cartridges in a hi capacity magazine while the .357mag is a great man stopper but it's basically a revolver ammo (yes, there's the Coonan but that's one semi auto).

Anyhow, to each their own!

 

[Fiv3r]

My guess is that handguns are too much of a compromise in and of themselves to warrant to try and reinvent the wheel so that you can build a gun that is basically a revolver in semi-auto's clothing.

I know the 357SIG is supposes to mimic the performance of the 125gr .357, but short of a few agencies and a very few CC civilians, it hasn't caught on like the other more popular rounds.

 

[Wil Terry]

I AM AMAZED that no one mentioned the COONAN 357MAg autoloading pistol. The two I tried functioned perfectly, shot beautifully, and gave REALLY high velocities.
My SA 1911a! 9x23 lighweight shoots superbly, touches ANY 357MAG numbers, and shoots a ton of different cartridges though it was not designed to do so...IT just does !!!
And so it goes..

 

[TRX]

Look up ".38 Casull." Dick Casull sold boutique 1911s in that chambering. It's a .45 Win Mag case necked down to take 9mm bullets. (why ask why...)

The ballistics claims for the .38 Casull would be impressive if you were talking about .357 AMP or 9mm AMT Magnum; in the stubby little Casull case, I'd want to see the chronograph for myself. But Dick Casull didn't just fall out of the cherry tree...

 

[herrwalther]

I AM AMAZED that no one mentioned the COONAN 357MAg autoloading pistol. The two I tried functioned perfectly, shot beautifully, and gave REALLY high velocities.

Three times. Read posts #5, 15, and 44.

I was actually surprised that the Coonan 1911 only costs about $1300. Being such an oddity firearm, I was expecting more.

 

[Jaymo]

.356 TSW would make me hapy.

I don't covet a .357-wannabe Sig.
The short neck limits bullet selection.

I don't have a .357 Mag autopistol, but I do have a .38 Special autopistol.

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[Monac]

Thanks for putting up that picture, Jaymo. That's a wonderful gun. Is that very large extractor a sign of an early Model 52? I don't know that much about them.