If the 9mm Mak case is only 1mm shorter than a 9mm Luger case, why is the 9mm Mak ammo so much weaker? I would think the gun could stand it with a stronger recoil spring, it is all steel. I would imagine it could handle 115gr@1100fps, but everything I have seen seems to be around [email protected] is going on with that?
Why no 9x18 +P ammo for Makarov
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Snowdog
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You'll need a lot more than just a heavier spring; the Makarov does not feature a locking breech.
Being that it's a straight blowback, you don't want to shoot anything emulating 9mm ammunition through it as it was never designed or intended for those pressures.
As for hot 9x18 loads, LVE's Silverbear ammunition can be found in both 120gr JHP (previously offered) and 115gr JHP (current manufacture) that are both quite hot.
Wolf also offers a 109gr FMJ that's on the stout side as well.
Heavier springs are recommended if steady diets consist of either round.
I'll venture to say, if you're looking for 9x19 energies, you shouldn't look at the Makarov to achieve it.
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VonFatman
Member
I don't know why either...
However, since the Makarov is a military
surplus gun, and due to uncertain
metallurgic quality control in the former
USSR and it's satellites....I'd be very leery
of chambering a hot 9mm Mak round in any
of my Makarovs.
In NO way do I intend disparage the Makarov
by writing this...the gun is a terrific piece and
I would trust my life with one! My concern strictly
relates to the "power push" point.
If the round were used in a modern gun
of recognized quality/track record...I think
you could feel more comfortable pushing
the envelope a bit.
I assume there is a reason for the round's
level of power.
VonFatman
However, since the Makarov is a military
surplus gun, and due to uncertain
metallurgic quality control in the former
USSR and it's satellites....I'd be very leery
of chambering a hot 9mm Mak round in any
of my Makarovs.
In NO way do I intend disparage the Makarov
by writing this...the gun is a terrific piece and
I would trust my life with one! My concern strictly
relates to the "power push" point.
If the round were used in a modern gun
of recognized quality/track record...I think
you could feel more comfortable pushing
the envelope a bit.
I assume there is a reason for the round's
level of power.
VonFatman
Thanks for the replies, they both make great sense. I am picking up my first Mak in about an hour and am very excited, I am not worried about the lower than 9mm Luger power, I was just wondering since I am always tinkering with reloading. I am glad you guys put my head on straight before I started farting around with homemade Mak +P ammo.
Cooter Brown
Member
FYI
The Mararov is a "blow-back" action pistol, like the Walther PP. They are not designed for +P. The recoil spring weight is basically irrelevant to the strength of the action. Blowbacks depend on the weight/interia of the slide to seal (or "lock" the action). I like 21# springs but they are hard to rack. I like them becasue they are sure-feeeding. A 9MM luger pistol is, unless REALLY HEAVY IN THE SLIDE like an Astra 600, made for much higher pressure and seals mechanically, like a colt, Luger, M35, etc. . A MAK (9.2 MM) is plenty hot and well-engineered for what it is.
The Mararov is a "blow-back" action pistol, like the Walther PP. They are not designed for +P. The recoil spring weight is basically irrelevant to the strength of the action. Blowbacks depend on the weight/interia of the slide to seal (or "lock" the action). I like 21# springs but they are hard to rack. I like them becasue they are sure-feeeding. A 9MM luger pistol is, unless REALLY HEAVY IN THE SLIDE like an Astra 600, made for much higher pressure and seals mechanically, like a colt, Luger, M35, etc. . A MAK (9.2 MM) is plenty hot and well-engineered for what it is.
BHPshooter
Member
Like everyone else has said, the Mak is a blowback design. In order to use hotter ammunition, you'd probably need a locked breech design to keep the gun from battering itself to death in short order.
What this means is that with a locked breech, the recoil forces on the slide of the gun are delayed, generally using more energy to propel the bullet than the slide; whereas a blowback action will use equal force to push the bullet and the slide (for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction). Using hotter ammo might up the bullet speed and power a bit, but the gun -- and the shooter -- would definitely feel it as well. Steel or not, the gun would definitely show the effects of the beating after long.
The Mak is a cool desing, but there are so many 9mm Luger designs out there, why not go for one of those?
Wes
What this means is that with a locked breech, the recoil forces on the slide of the gun are delayed, generally using more energy to propel the bullet than the slide; whereas a blowback action will use equal force to push the bullet and the slide (for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction). Using hotter ammo might up the bullet speed and power a bit, but the gun -- and the shooter -- would definitely feel it as well. Steel or not, the gun would definitely show the effects of the beating after long.
The Mak is a cool desing, but there are so many 9mm Luger designs out there, why not go for one of those?
Wes
Mak +P ?
I asked the same question at the expert forum, www.gunboards.com/forums (Mak). Got basically the same answers.
I don't believe a stronger load is impossible in a blowback design. It was used in an Astra (400 ?) in 9mm "Largo" ( 9x23 ) and in a .45 ACP whose name I don't recall right now.
Someone whose opinion I really respect, Greg S., replied that he thought the Wolf 109 grn. FMJ was +P, meaning it's a hot load.
The discontinued CorBon round for this caliber would consistently exceed 1,100 fps.
One guy loads 95 grn. XTPs with 4.1 grns. of Bulleye and claims an honest 1,100, very fast for this caliber.
Also known as a hot round is the 115 grn. Brown Bear, my personal choice for a CCW carry.
I asked the same question at the expert forum, www.gunboards.com/forums (Mak). Got basically the same answers.
I don't believe a stronger load is impossible in a blowback design. It was used in an Astra (400 ?) in 9mm "Largo" ( 9x23 ) and in a .45 ACP whose name I don't recall right now.
Someone whose opinion I really respect, Greg S., replied that he thought the Wolf 109 grn. FMJ was +P, meaning it's a hot load.
The discontinued CorBon round for this caliber would consistently exceed 1,100 fps.
One guy loads 95 grn. XTPs with 4.1 grns. of Bulleye and claims an honest 1,100, very fast for this caliber.
Also known as a hot round is the 115 grn. Brown Bear, my personal choice for a CCW carry.
They did make a Mak in 9mm Para, but it used a fluted chamber to reduce slide speed. Cases ejected were deformed by the fluting. Never imported here, and I don't think very common even in Russia.
The Mak is capable of handling pretty hot loads. Most of the 9x18 sold in the U.S. is closer to .380. From what I understand 9mm Mak sold in Russia is a bit hotter.
Still, I'm happy with the two of mine. One Russian one E. German. I wouldn't want much hotter ammo. They have a decent snappy recoil. I have put Wolf spings on both of mine to help preserve the guns.
- Makarov
The Mak is capable of handling pretty hot loads. Most of the 9x18 sold in the U.S. is closer to .380. From what I understand 9mm Mak sold in Russia is a bit hotter.
Still, I'm happy with the two of mine. One Russian one E. German. I wouldn't want much hotter ammo. They have a decent snappy recoil. I have put Wolf spings on both of mine to help preserve the guns.
- Makarov
Rival
Member
I don't know if you guys know, but there's a new modification of Makarov, or PM (Pistolet Makarova) in Russia, which is not exported. It is called PMM (Pistolet Makarova Modified)
It is designed to fire a new hot 9x18 carthridge which is called 9x18PMM. The original Makarov will feed this round, but it is not designed to handle such a hot load. So please don't blow your Makarov with that new Russian ammo, although I am pretty sure none was exported from Russia.
It is designed to fire a new hot 9x18 carthridge which is called 9x18PMM. The original Makarov will feed this round, but it is not designed to handle such a hot load. So please don't blow your Makarov with that new Russian ammo, although I am pretty sure none was exported from Russia.
Rival
Member
PMM has magazine capacity of 12 rounds and has fluted chamber to handle the hot loads. The energy of new 9x18 carthridge is 1.7 times the energy of original 9mm Makarov carthridge, and close to regular 9mm Luger loads.
PMM can also use the old standart 9mm Mak ammo.
PMM can also use the old standart 9mm Mak ammo.
Cooter Brown
Member
Don't Overdo It...
The regular 9x18 PM is perfect IMHO. I don't want more power in that cartridge or in a gun of that sort.
If I want Luger power, I'll get a Luger-pistol, and 9X19 is some of the cheapest ammo available.
The regular 9x18 PM is perfect IMHO. I don't want more power in that cartridge or in a gun of that sort.
If I want Luger power, I'll get a Luger-pistol, and 9X19 is some of the cheapest ammo available.
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