ronto
Member
Firing a 22 Magnum from a short barrel is just taking good money and turning it into loud noise...at least you'll get more practice with a 22LR...neither one is a SD choice.
Why Not 22 Mag.?
- Thread starter Wolfpackin
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Jorg Nysgerrig
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Where is every one getting this information that the .22 mag from a short barrel is a complete wasted?
I posted this information in another thread months ago, but I think it still applies.
Again, according to these numbers, the .22 WMR substanially outperforms the .22 LR, even in short barrels.
I posted this information in another thread months ago, but I think it still applies.
Again, according to these numbers, the .22 WMR substanially outperforms the .22 LR, even in short barrels.
Shear_stress
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Yes, the .22 WMR has a numerical advantage in muzzle energy over a .22 LR from a barrel of the same length. This is true. However, this is not proof that the Magnum offers any real world advantage in wounding potential. We are still talking about rounds with less than 100 ft-lbs of muzzle energy. We could argue that the extra energy doesn't hurt (the shooter, that is), but is it enough of a benefit to outweigh the increased flash, noise, and ammo cost (which may translate to practice time)?
On the other hand, if .22 Magnum is the only thing you feel comfortable with shooting and carrying, than don't sweat it! The usual cliche of "it's better than no gun" applies. There isn't a mouse gun out there that I would volunteer to stand in front of.
MCgunner
Member
If you figure percentage of extra energy, makes it sound like a bunch. But, I don't think 66.8 ft lbs is a whole big deal.
I'd carry neither for primary and the .22LR is more useful to me an cheaper to operate and a LOT quieter. If 66 ft lbs floats your boat, go for it. Just remember, not matter if it's 41 ft lbs or 66, you gotta aim for the eyes with such a mouse caliber. Forget about center mass, doesn't exist.
Jorg Nysgerrig
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Don't get me wrong. I'm not endorsing it as a self-defense cartridge. It just seems that many people insist there is no difference between the two cartridges out of these little guns, when in fact, there seems to be a considerable difference between the two.
That said, having shot the NAA in both .22 LR and .22 MAG, I wouldn't describe either as pleasant to shoot. But I was going to carry something that small, I would want it to pack as much of a punch as possible.
However, plinking is more fun with a full-sized .22 and my .40 makes more sense for defense. While these guns may be acceptable to some when a larger gun can't be taken along, they barely rank higher than a novelty to me.
That said, having shot the NAA in both .22 LR and .22 MAG, I wouldn't describe either as pleasant to shoot. But I was going to carry something that small, I would want it to pack as much of a punch as possible.
However, plinking is more fun with a full-sized .22 and my .40 makes more sense for defense. While these guns may be acceptable to some when a larger gun can't be taken along, they barely rank higher than a novelty to me.
MCgunner
Member
I read an article in a gun rag once that called the NAA minis "onion field guns", after the movie. They promoted it as a third gun. I can see that because it's so bloomin' easy to take along. I do think it needs the holster grip. It's quite shootable and accurate with the bigger grip. I can't shoot the thing without it.
The .22 mag grip is a little larger and might be more shootable. Having one on a necklace under your shirt would be a possibility for a FOURTH gun. If I was in law enforcement, I might have these things all over me when I'm working.
The .22 mag grip is a little larger and might be more shootable. Having one on a necklace under your shirt would be a possibility for a FOURTH gun.
If I was in law enforcement, I might have these things all over me when I'm working. In responce to 22mag in a mini revolver being more expensive, meaning less practice. The main practice IMO should be in tactics.
Something that happened to me in fun but could have been for real....
A 450lb man (a friend)came up behind me as I was sitting in a chair he put his left hand on my shoulder and his right hand on my side carry revolver. Needless to say..pushind down he folded me till my chest was on the table and easily removed my revolver. while I was folded, my left hand was able to get my mini from my right front pocket. he sat in front of me with my revolver in his hand aimed down. When he looked at me guess where my mini was.
(from 3 ft away) Of course I don't play like this anymore.
Something that happened to me in fun but could have been for real....
A 450lb man (a friend)came up behind me as I was sitting in a chair he put his left hand on my shoulder and his right hand on my side carry revolver. Needless to say..pushind down he folded me till my chest was on the table and easily removed my revolver. while I was folded, my left hand was able to get my mini from my right front pocket. he sat in front of me with my revolver in his hand aimed down. When he looked at me guess where my mini was.
(from 3 ft away) Of course I don't play like this anymore.
ArchAngelCD
Member.
I would carry a .22 LR pistol only if there was no way to conceal a more potent gun. If you are out at the beach with only swimming trunks and a T shirt then a palm size .22 LR is better than a knife but I wouldn't choose it for a regular carry piece.
You should look into a .38 Spl or .32 Mag snub nose IMO.
You should look into a .38 Spl or .32 Mag snub nose IMO.
achildofthesky
Member
How about one of these...
If you like 22 mag because of size considerations how about one of these???
Comfy to hold and shoot as you can see this is a 4" barrel model they exist in 2 1/2" or so and 6" as well. Granted not the first choice in power but quite flat and reasonably light and yes a bit loud and it has a good deal of flash from the bore...
Patty
If you like 22 mag because of size considerations how about one of these???
Comfy to hold and shoot as you can see this is a 4" barrel model they exist in 2 1/2" or so and 6" as well. Granted not the first choice in power but quite flat and reasonably light and yes a bit loud and it has a good deal of flash from the bore...
Patty
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That AMT was the first gun I ever bought. I did similar trade offs in my head, since I didnt' handload then and wanted more power than a 22LR. This was also the first gun I've ever sold. Penetration and performance in wet newspapers was impressive.
The 22 WMR works OK, but the AMT was a little finicky about ammo. It didn't like the 50gr rounds at all, or most Federal ammo. Win and CCI were the best.
I think most everyone has touched on the disadvantages of the 22 WMR. I agree with those and summarize them again:
Its expensive and not reloadable.
You have a small level of ammo choices, but its better now than ever in the past.
It makes a huge muzzle flash. This could be an advantage if you wish to burn your opponent though.
It is extremely loud.
With the advances in 22LR loadings, including some of the exotic ones like the 60gr Aguila SS and the fast 40gr CCI Velicitor, I'd go with a 22LR. Way more choices in ammo and you can find dirt cheap 22LR whereas you cannot with 22 WMR.
The 22 WMR works OK, but the AMT was a little finicky about ammo. It didn't like the 50gr rounds at all, or most Federal ammo. Win and CCI were the best.
I think most everyone has touched on the disadvantages of the 22 WMR. I agree with those and summarize them again:
Its expensive and not reloadable.
You have a small level of ammo choices, but its better now than ever in the past.
It makes a huge muzzle flash. This could be an advantage if you wish to burn your opponent though.
It is extremely loud.
With the advances in 22LR loadings, including some of the exotic ones like the 60gr Aguila SS and the fast 40gr CCI Velicitor, I'd go with a 22LR. Way more choices in ammo and you can find dirt cheap 22LR whereas you cannot with 22 WMR.
special ops
Member
Tarus 941 Misfires
I recently purchased a 941 and fired 42 rounds. There was one misfire. I guess it's OK as long as you have 7 more to fire (assuming the first misfire did not cause your demise.
I recently purchased a 941 and fired 42 rounds. There was one misfire. I guess it's OK as long as you have 7 more to fire (assuming the first misfire did not cause your demise.
metrotps
Member
Many LEO's in the Seattle area carry a Taurus 941UL 22mag snubbie as a backup gun. In fact they are hard to come by out here because of this popularity. I have one that likes CCI 40 grain best as anything lighter doesn't stablize well in the 1 in 15 twist. I am going to try some 45 and 50 grain bullets and will report on the results. The muzzle blast is severe and the penetration is documented here:
http://www.brassfetcher.com/22WMR.html
In real world shootings many survivors have reported not seeing or hearing the shots but only felt an impact. The muzzleblast would be a bonus shock factor in a self defence encounter but a detriment to the shooter in a nightime secenario.
http://www.brassfetcher.com/22WMR.html
In real world shootings many survivors have reported not seeing or hearing the shots but only felt an impact. The muzzleblast would be a bonus shock factor in a self defence encounter but a detriment to the shooter in a nightime secenario.
ArchAngelCD
Member.
WOW, this thread is more than a year and a half old and it's back!!!
REALLY???
REALLY???
DavidVS
Member
ammo quality
No one has yet talked about ammunition quality!
I have a NAA "Black Widow" with both the .22LR and .22 Magnum cylinders. I enjoy shooting the .22 Magnum a lot more. I have yet to find a brand of .22LR that is not incredibly smoky, and I dislike standing in smoke and lead dust. The CCI .22 Magnum costs a bit more but burns cleanly even out of that tiny barrel.
If I only had the .22LR cylinder I would not practice as much!
No one has yet talked about ammunition quality!
I have a NAA "Black Widow" with both the .22LR and .22 Magnum cylinders. I enjoy shooting the .22 Magnum a lot more. I have yet to find a brand of .22LR that is not incredibly smoky, and I dislike standing in smoke and lead dust. The CCI .22 Magnum costs a bit more but burns cleanly even out of that tiny barrel.
If I only had the .22LR cylinder I would not practice as much!
James Clifton
Member
I really get a kick out of guys bad mouthing the 22mag...then they say they the carry a NAA. Give me a break...I have & carry a 351PD quite a bit.The 351 is NOT for target shooting...it's for up close.I have 7rounds & my first shot is going to the groin!!Now... I have 6 more !!I repeat it's for CLOSE contact....the 351 is light easy to hide & I PRACTICE with her quite a bit.Bottom line is WE all have diff.taste in guns.Just my two cents,
Jim
Jim
this whole thread makes me wonder... now that Taurus makes this gun (and sells plenty, btw) will some ammo company make this cartridge in a faster burning powder? and is there any difference in that area between one manuf. and another? What might be the best .22 mag round for a revolver?
I have one, of course. Not sure about that 90% number.. it sure as heck kicks harder than any .22LR handgun I've ever used.. WAY harder.. and if that much of the charge was burning outside the barrel, the kick should be less...
just thoughts.
I have one, of course. Not sure about that 90% number.. it sure as heck kicks harder than any .22LR handgun I've ever used.. WAY harder.. and if that much of the charge was burning outside the barrel, the kick should be less...
just thoughts.
sbd45acp
Member
Wolfpackin- I have been a student of the martial art of self defense with firearms and, a student of, ahem-"Violent interpersonal social conflicts" for 25 plus years. Figure out a way to carry the 40. It won't seem heavy or big enough if you ever need it. Sacrifice some fashion, get a quality belt and holster and try some different carry methods.The instructor may have quoted rifle bbl. length energy which you will never get from a short revolver bbl. 22 Mag uses slow burning powder to attain high velocity from a RIFLE bbl. Much of it will burn OUTSIDE a short bbl. The muzzle blast and flash will be great show but the little 45 grn 22 pill may not impress the bad guy(s) excepting a brain hit.
As for the NAA mini revolver I consider them novelty only. If carried in the pocket, lint, trash ,dirt and debris build up under the grip panels and render it inoperable. Think about trying to draw one of those tiny things under stress,thumb cock it SA while trying to keep digits off the unprotected trigger, a 6 in. fire ball in low light and, if you DO manage to get off a round- you have struck you assailant with a 22 mag from a 1 in. bbl. One student on the range (big fellow) was trying to prove he could overcome all those obstacles and when the little NAA fired, it recoiled right out of his fingers! I would rather have a good knife. I personally consider 9mm/ 38 Spl. the minimum unless there in some physical limitation. Most 9mm, 40, 45 acp are easier to manipulate, HIT with, and have less FELT recoil that the smaller hide out /pocket carry blow back operated pistols.
As for the NAA mini revolver I consider them novelty only. If carried in the pocket, lint, trash ,dirt and debris build up under the grip panels and render it inoperable. Think about trying to draw one of those tiny things under stress,thumb cock it SA while trying to keep digits off the unprotected trigger, a 6 in. fire ball in low light and, if you DO manage to get off a round- you have struck you assailant with a 22 mag from a 1 in. bbl. One student on the range (big fellow) was trying to prove he could overcome all those obstacles and when the little NAA fired, it recoiled right out of his fingers! I would rather have a good knife. I personally consider 9mm/ 38 Spl. the minimum unless there in some physical limitation. Most 9mm, 40, 45 acp are easier to manipulate, HIT with, and have less FELT recoil that the smaller hide out /pocket carry blow back operated pistols.
ArchAngelCD
Member.
Why in the world did anyone bring this thread back not once, but twice? This thread is just about 3 year old now. I'm sure the OP already made up his mind on the .22 Mag.
Mainsail
Member
I can only think of one scenario where the gun's weight makes much of a difference; swimming. (Wouldn't want to sink to the bottom!)
Why is the weight of the gun so important?
EDIT: Just read the previous post. D'oh!
couldbeanyone
Member
You can't use NAA mini-revolver ballistics for other revolvers. The back of their barrels are so narrow that they lose a huge amount of pressure out of the barrel to cylinder gap. My 4" Taurus 941 gets 1647fps with CCI Maxi-mag+V vs 1396fps fps for a 4" NAA with the same load. I get 1384fps with Winchester super-X vs 1101 for a NAA with the same load. There is also a large gain in 2" barrels.
Exageration
I think the shooting instructor exagerated the ballistics of the .22 magnum. I really like the cartridge in a rifle which is the only type of gun that will get those ballistics.
It has a real power and trajectory advantage of the .22 long rifle when fired in a rifle.
In a handgun, the .22 magnum will not have enough barrel length to achieve this. Martin D. TOPPER tested a pair of .22 rimfire revolvers for GUNWORLD magazine and found little velocity advadtage to the .22 magnum from a snubnose revolver.
The ammo will cost quite a bit more and not do much more damage from a snubnose. If you are going to use a longer barreled gun, then you might want to get a more powerful caliber.
In a revolver, I would go with a .38 Special and use +P ammo if the recoil was within your toleration limits. Stick with a light load like the 125 grain NYCLAD hollowpoints if not.
Jim
I think the shooting instructor exagerated the ballistics of the .22 magnum. I really like the cartridge in a rifle which is the only type of gun that will get those ballistics.
It has a real power and trajectory advantage of the .22 long rifle when fired in a rifle.
In a handgun, the .22 magnum will not have enough barrel length to achieve this. Martin D. TOPPER tested a pair of .22 rimfire revolvers for GUNWORLD magazine and found little velocity advadtage to the .22 magnum from a snubnose revolver.
The ammo will cost quite a bit more and not do much more damage from a snubnose. If you are going to use a longer barreled gun, then you might want to get a more powerful caliber.
In a revolver, I would go with a .38 Special and use +P ammo if the recoil was within your toleration limits. Stick with a light load like the 125 grain NYCLAD hollowpoints if not.
Jim
Stainz
Member
Five years ago, I had a commemorative 4.6" Single Six - briefly. I chrono-ed everything then - and tried Federal Game Shok .22LRs and Remington WMRs, yielding 1,023 +/-20 fps and 1,470 +/-39 fps. That's less than 10% off the velocity of those .22 LRs from a 25.4" CZ rifle, but 30+% off a 21" Savage .22 WMR velocity. My bet is the latter drops more quickly as the snubby barrel is approached.
Now, the real problem - the J-frame rimfire lockwork. While the K-frame rimfire, ie, 617, lockwork is similar to the centerfire versions, not so with the J-frame. My SS 63, a .22 LR, came with a 14 lb hammer coil - a 642 comes with a 9 lb. Add a 13+ lb trigger recoil spring, and it's a miserable trigger pull. Go to the 351PD in .22 WMR, and it's worse (Perhaps the WMR is tougher to ignite?). The problem here with the 351PD for folks with weak wrists is simple - they will have real problems pulling that trigger! S&W only offers a trigger 'enhancement' for $85 - no traditional trigger job - and no trigger/hammer spring replacements for the J-frame rimfires.
A 642/442 with 148gr wadcutter target loads will be easier on the wrists/hands - and punch a much larger hole with 3+ times the throw weight.
Stainz
PS Knowing all of this, I'd still likely grab a 351PD if I found one at a good price!
Now, the real problem - the J-frame rimfire lockwork. While the K-frame rimfire, ie, 617, lockwork is similar to the centerfire versions, not so with the J-frame. My SS 63, a .22 LR, came with a 14 lb hammer coil - a 642 comes with a 9 lb. Add a 13+ lb trigger recoil spring, and it's a miserable trigger pull. Go to the 351PD in .22 WMR, and it's worse (Perhaps the WMR is tougher to ignite?). The problem here with the 351PD for folks with weak wrists is simple - they will have real problems pulling that trigger! S&W only offers a trigger 'enhancement' for $85 - no traditional trigger job - and no trigger/hammer spring replacements for the J-frame rimfires.
A 642/442 with 148gr wadcutter target loads will be easier on the wrists/hands - and punch a much larger hole with 3+ times the throw weight.
Stainz
PS Knowing all of this, I'd still likely grab a 351PD if I found one at a good price!
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