why not semi-auto?

[jmr40]

A good reliable semi is fine in my opinion. To get a good reliable semi will cost you a lot more than a pump. The pump will work with a wider range of ammo, particularly light loads. Most autos will work most reliably with the standard to heavy loads.

If you don't mind spending the extra money and making sure they function reliably with the chosen ammo I see no reason not to trust an auto just as much as a pump.

 

[Lastmohecken]

Semi-auto shotguns have been reliable for a hundred years, or at least one has, if maintained correctly, and that's the old Browning A5. I have owned several pumps, and quite a few autos, and I will put my money on a good Browning A5 before I will about any pump. And that's what I keep loaded, for a house gun is a very old A5, but I have shot it thousands of rounds, and it was very used and old before I ever bought it.

Granted it if is assembled wrong, it might not kick out light loads, but if the rings are right, mine will shoot anything I have ever tried. I have seen far more jams with pumps, plus I like the magazine cutoff, which makes it easy to switch the first load. But I guess the average A5 is a little more expensive.

I even know an old man, who was a friend of my dad's, who once told me that he carried an A5 while serving as an advisor in Nam. I do know he seen a lot of action. If I ever get to talk to him, again, I am going to ask him what kind of maintance he did on his A5, to keep it running.

 

[ShowMe2]

I've seen too many cops short cycle a pump gun in training. Yes, it is a training issue, but no one seems to know how much more training is needed to ensure it won't happen when the stress level really goes up.

I bought a Remington Model 11 at a gun show for $160, had the barrel cut to 18", shot the heck out of it with Federal Tactical buckshot to make sure it was reliable, and now use it for HD.

If a Model 11 was good enough for Charlie Askins and Frank Hamer, it's good enough for me.

 

[hobbeeman]

My reason for a pump is different than others, I suppose. I like the sound! When someone racks a pump, the sound is very distinctive and I hope that the BG will take off for the hills when he hears it!

 

[-v-]

I think the main reason that a pump is used more often for HD then a semi- is cost. A good pump can start around $200 or so for a Maverick 88. A good semi- starts significantly higher than that. Considering the typical HD scenario, 6 shots in a pump-gun is usually more than enough, as it is doubtful that even 4 out of those 6 rounds will actually be fired. Thus the added firepower of a semi- is unnecessary for HD.

Additionally I think it is also a tradition thing. Shot-guns are normally pump action, in most people's minds. When they go to get a shotgun, they naturally think pump gun, with an semi- being a strange exotic.

Naturally, if you live in a former crack house or work for a Mexican drug cartel, your mileage may vary, but for the average homeowner seeking security a 6-shot 18.5" pump is more than enough to cover all their needs.

 

[IdahoLT1]

I think some of the people are talking w/out much experience. My 11-87 easily has over 2000 shells through it. In that time, ive had 3 FTE's. and stovepipes are easy to fix. I paid like $600 for it(not expensive for a shotgun IMO)

The semi's also reduce the felt recoil. Ive put 5 rounds of 3" 000buck into a stump as fast as i could pull the trigger. Ive also gone through 300 shells in a single afternoon shoting clay pigeons and my shoulder was a little red.

And the only "picky" autoloaders are the 3.5" chambered ones. Ive shot everything from 3" 000 buck to 2 3/4 #8 shot through my 11-87(3"). No problems other than mentioned above. The recoil operated shot guns will be the fusier ones if anything, but thats only going to be with 2 3/4 target loads.

Price is a thing to consider, but to me, having a gun where i can get 2-3 accurate shots down range in the time it takes a pump to get 1 is worth the extra $200.

I doubt Tom Knapp could do this with a pump. And this gun is a production model. the only mods were a mag extension and a fiber optic sight. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jpv0yZC3iMM

 

[ArmedBear]

IdahoLT1, if you look on Tom Knapp's site, you'll see that you're right. He only breaks 8 with a pump...

http://www.tomknapp.net/about/worldRecords.php (See World Record #2)

Stovepipes aren't all that easy to fix under stress, either.

That doesn't mean semis are bad, or that pumps are the only way to go. I don't use my pump gun for much, either.

Ive put 5 rounds of 3" 000buck into a stump as fast as i could pull the trigger.

If you have to do that in your house, you are either being burglarized by a herd of white rhinos, or you are a terrible shot and had better hope you're a really good carpenter.

 

[Zundfolge]

My reason for a pump is different than others, I suppose. I like the sound! When someone racks a pump, the sound is very distinctive and I hope that the BG will take off for the hills when he hears it!

This has always bugged the crap out of me. Sure some people may be scared away by the pump action sound, but still others will chuckle to themselves that you just gave away your tactical advantage by giving away your position and BANG you're toast.

Using guns as props to scare bad guys away is a good way to get yourself killed.

If I have to use a gun for home defense I want the sumbidge down before he hears my gun discharge.

Semi-auto shotguns have been reliable for a hundred years, or at least one has, if maintained correctly, and that's the old Browning A5.

Hmm ... I wonder if an A5 would make a good shotgun for 3-Gun (which is probably the toughest test of a shotguns reliability)

 

[SuperNaut]

I've seen too many cops short cycle a pump gun in training. Yes, it is a training issue, but no one seems to know how much more training is needed to ensure it won't happen when the stress level really goes up.

I never short-stroked a pump in my life, until I took a shotgun training course. Then I short-stroked pretty much constantly throughout the entire course. It is interesting what a little stress can highlight.

 

[cameron.personal]

Winchester SX2 Practical MKII (always goes bang, with the correct piston and load this is my 3-gun shotgun).
Winchester 1300 Defender (always goes bang, has been short stroked under stress).
LMT (always goes bang.... 30 times in a row).



Semi-auto shotgun? Mmmmm maybe semi auto carbine.

Only the carbines and pistols are actually kept loaded in my house.

Cameron

 

[ArmedBear]

3-Gun (which is probably the toughest test of a shotguns reliability)

Not hardly. If it dies in 3-Gun, it's not at all reliable.

South American dove shooting is the toughest test of shotguns, and it's where Beretta and Benelli test pre-production models AFAIK. Their production guns are some of the only ones that hold up to the beating, too.

This article is enlightening: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_4_47/ai_71323939/

Note that the few semiautos he recommends are not cheap, and all the others break. Quality break-actions are reliable, but nobody buys a reliable double or O/U like a Browning, Beretta or Perazzi for home defense.

So, you come back to guns like the 870, which, BTW, is used for high-volume dove shooting "loaner" guns. The 1100/1187? They don't last a day. I knew a guy who tried.

 

[Dave McCracken]

Here's my take....

Until fairly recently reliability in autos with a variety of ammo and under stressful conditions was not as common as we'd like it to be.

In the jungle fighting in the Pacific theater, 1941-45, the Model 12 and 97 were highly regarded, but the Model 11 was not quite so fondly remembered.

By the 50s, the A-5s the Brits used in Malaya were better thought of as maintenance and lubes improved.and more so in what was South Africa and Rhodesia in the 60s and 70s.

These days, finding autos that can pass the Ayoob Test (200 rounds of duty ammo glitch free) isn't all that hard.

And while I'm a hard core 870 fan, I freely admit my times with the Saiga on something like a Dozier are better by a hair.

Still, the pumps handle a wider range of ammo, do cost less than autos and are as reliable as a crowbar.

Shoot both until proficient,then take your pick...

 

[testosterone]

I have a Benelli M1 super 90(HK branded).

I have fired 1500 consecutive shells(clay's in a field with some friends) over two days.

Those are el-cheapo walmart federal #8 low brass trap ammo.

Zero failures.

Likewise 3" shoulder destroyers.

No failures of any kind.

 

[ArmedBear]

These days, finding autos that can pass the Ayoob Test (200 rounds of duty ammo glitch free) isn't all that hard.

...assuming you start with a clean, properly-oiled gun.

Some modern gas-operated guns can easily shoot 1000 rounds between cleanings, but reliability starts to drop when it gets dirty.

Also, I didn't put enough oil in mine after cleaning snow out of it the other day. It jammed repeatedly, and it's 100% reliable normally. Even a good semiauto can be dependent on being "just so."

A dirty pump will still cycle, unless it's rusted or something really extreme. Some people don't clean the things for years.

 

[SnakeLogan]

If I could afford it, no doubt I'd buy a Benelli M4. However, I can't, so my HD shotgun is a Super Nova Tactical.

 

[Warhawk83]

For me, a shotgun is not really a gun I enjoy shooting. I have shot pumps and autos and just honestly, don't like em all that much. I wanted a 12 gauge pump, purely for home defense, got a Mossberg Maverick 88 at academy for $188 IIRC. So instead of having money tied up in something I will shoot maybe twice a year I could train to get better with my handgun, or buy ammo, or whatever.

 

[bwsmith2850]

Darn, Gunfighter123, by the time you make up your mind which SG to use, the emergency will have passed

One look at that collection and any BG with an IQ above room temp will go bother someone else. The ones that don't certainly won't be coming any farther in.

I have a 870 at home because I got a deal on a police trade in that must have lived in the armory. Not a mark on it. They're dm near indestructible.

There's nothing wrong with a semi auto either. You sound like you're familiar with semi autos in HG & rifles, these are similar in operation. As long as you feed it good factory shells it should run just fine with much faster follow up shots. They do sometimes have digesting oddball cartridges, so do semi rifles & pistols. We're looking at changing to the 11-87 at work and when we tested them we all just loved them.

A nice used semi auto SG is on my 'to buy' list too.

 

[ShowMe2]

DaveMc,

Although I share your love for the 870, many years ago I attended a 5-day law enforcement shotgun instuctor's course sponsored by the Smith & Wesson Academy that seriously started me thinking about autoloaders.

On the fifth day of training one of the courses of fire was called the "Stress Drill". By the last day of training we were feeling pretty good about ourselves. Virtually the whole class had 870's, and by the fifth day we had done every drill imaginable, shooting close to a thousand rounds of target loads and buckshot. I felt very comfortable in cycling my 870.

The "Stress Drill" consisted of loading and shooting 25 rounds of target loads while the instructor yelled at you. By the 5th day, he knew us all pretty well, and knew exactly what to say to press our individual buttons. All we had to do was keep our guns running by firing on command and loading. Clicking on an empty chamber was definitely a no-no. The instructor knew just whay to say to get the stress level up. It was then the short cycling began...not a lot, but noticeable.

Here was a group of gun strokes (me included), who cycled pump guns all week (and some of us all of our lives), but when the stress level went up...
the short cycling began.

Autoloaders will never take the place of a pump shotgun in patrol cars or HD, but a reliable one eliminates the human factor of manipulating a mechanical object in situations of extreme stress, and IMO that's a good thing.

 

[Dave McCracken]

Showme, one favorite drill I like on a Wobble trap is a flurry. Two shooters standing side by side take turns loading and firing at clay targets as fast as the trap can reset.

I often have done it with an 870, loading as I go. I can get two shells into an 870 fast enough to beat the trap.

Often the folks I shoot with use pumpguns also. Being the competitive types often seen on ranges, we get kinda frantic/OC about this.

No short shucks. I've had just one in a shotgunning life of 50 years and my arthritis was kicking that day.

My total round count with 870s is north of 50K rounds and may be closer to 100K. I haven't kept track.

I also shot enough 3 gun back in the day to take HOA in a LE league a couple times. No glitches there either.

Of course, I started young and have racked it like I meant it always.

As for autos vs pumps, use what you want but use it until you and the shotgun function as a unit.

BTW, elsewhere on THR I wrote of testing a Saiga. You may find it informative...

 

[oneounceload]

Dave - we used to do a flurry out West, except you were on your own - every 4 seconds a pair came out from the tower behind you. You had an overturned 55 gallon drum to place your shells on, but I have never seen anyone with a pump do well....or a semi for that matter. The best shooter? shot a SxS and was a veteran of European driven shoots. If you can only load 2 to start, a pump or semi has too many motions, IMO.

JMO, YMMV

 

[ArmedBear]

4 seconds and from behind you? Hell, that's easy!

Try two machines in front of you, as fast as they will cycle, set low, on X- and Y-axis wobble, and two shooters. Sawhorses with shells lined up, and break-actions.

Shooting for bragging rights, and it was a lost cause. One of the shooters was Susan Sledge ( http://www.usashooting.com/viewRankings.php?id=trapWomen ). That's International Trap, which bears almost no resemblance whatsoever to dumbed-down ATA "trap".

Man, can that woman shoot. Plugged one after another.

 

[racine]

Pump or Semi?

I'm a devout semi user and have been so for 12 years. I recently bought my son an 870 Express (primarily due to cost) to hunt with. My first experience with shotguns was a 12ga 870 that was rough after about 30 rounds. Before my recent purchase I read several reviews on customer feedback and was VERY surprised to find that several users reported the pump mechanism locking up during use rendering the shotty useless. I'm not talking 1 or 2 but perhaps 10-15 separate reports. This is alarming in that many use this for home self defense. My HD shotty is an 1100 (Competition Master clone assembled by a shotty gunsmith) that has never so much as coughed in 12 years of practice, 3 gun competition, etc.. With the exception of sub 3 dram/low recoil loads of 8 or 9 shot it is 100% reliable. This is just my experience and I am not preaching to go and get a semi. I have been very careful to have factory Remington gunsmiths tune my 1100 and am as confident in it as my Glock sidearms. All this is useless if one doesn't practice with your preferred tool.

 

[Dave McCracken]

1 oz, Sounds like fun. Betcha some 3 gun shooters could do the loading OK. It does take more moves to load a repeater.

AB, that name is known to me. Bragging rights would be for second place.

Racine, I've fielded a bunch of complaints about the Expresses over the last few years.

Broken down, they fall into the following groups.

Bad ammft it's Winchester generics or similar steel head cheapos.

Inadequate chamber polishing. 5 minutes with 4/0 steel wool wrapped on a dowel chucked into a drill is the low tech fix.

Ownership by idiots who neither read the manual nor ask anyone about what to do.

People who can run a pump and know what to feed it do not seem to end up with those junky Expresses, rather the good ones.

 

[jjk308]

Used to be the gas operated autoloaders would jam a lot in wet weather. Most members of the hunt club in Tidewater Virginia I belonged to used to swear by the Browning A5. Until it got dirty out in the woods, then they swore at it.

I suppose the manufacturers are doing better these days but if you learn to shoot it a good pump gun will never fail you.

 

[eye5600]

Related question. The Tristar Cobra Tactical 12Ga Pump has a return spring that powers the return stroke of the pump. The text implies that after the rearward stroke of the pump, you could release it and the spring would power the forward stroke and put the gun in battery.

What the opinions have you? Obviously, the rearward stroke is going to be harder in order to compress the spring. I would guess the average arm is stronger in pulling toward the body than in pushing away, but I'm still dubious that it's an overall help. What is the mechanism of the short stokes mentioned in posts above, and would this help, or make the problem worse?

Am I dubious just because it's such a cheap gun and would I be more optimistic if it was an expensive gun?