Why not use the slide stop?

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All of you have subconsciously developed habits. Whether it is how you shave or how you eat.
You do what you practice. Stories abound. Some years back someone told the story about the expert PPC shooter. He was killed with the empties in his hands.
Might not be the truth but it makes a point. When the stuff hits the fan, my subconscious will require me to use the slide release. Otherwise, in a quiet world I will reach over the top, grasp the slide with my left hand, push it back and let go. Arthritis.
 
I disagree heartily. I have to question why you think there is any sort of consensus on that.

Maybe a more accurate way of putting it would be it is the consensus of most nationally known/recognized shooting schools that the preferred method, or at least the one usually taught is reaching over the top of the slide and grasping the rear serrations with your fingers on one side and the base of your thumb on the other to pull the slide to the rear to release it when chambering a round. I refer to schools like Thunder Ranch, Bill Rogers...

The major exceptions to this are:
1. sport or competition shooting where ultimate speed has a higher value than adaptability...most folks for whom the difference in speed would make a difference, use a dedicated platform (they know where the slide stop is)
2. training centered around the Beretta 92 series pistols (the location and ease with which their safety/de-cocker moves make racking overhand a greater liability

I teach every method I've ever learned (well, I can't do the Ninja One Hand chamber yet)...it is just an additional tool. But I will say that the overhand method works with every gun I've ever picked up, while the slide stop won't (think Walther PPK)
 
I'll have to work at it more. I've seen the original, that the USPSA match, and the one from the PI range...then the one where he does several Glocks.

I understand the mechanics of it, just can't get any of my guns to do it yet
 
All of you have subconsciously developed habits.
I like this the most.
When I shoot any of my guns, I have my own way of handling each one as I have developed habits. I tend to work the bolt on my Nagant differently when standing then when I do sitting, kneeling, prone, or at the bench. Can't say why but it's how I naturally do it.
The same goes for handguns, I've never owned a handgun with a slide stop so this "slingshot" method is all I've ever used. If I get a handgun with a slide stop I probably won't use it, I shouldn't need to think about what I need to do to load and fire my weapon.
 
Some of my pistols don't have a slide stop, but they will all slingshot. I would rather not have to use a different method for different pistols. That's why I always slingshot.

I don't think one method is clearly better than the other. If that were true, there wouldn't be so much arguing about it. ;)
 
I don't think one method is clearly better than the other. If that were true, there wouldn't be so much arguing about it. ;)

If "better" is "faster" then a pistol that releases the slide on a firm mag insert is "better", because it's faster to next shot than any other method.. Need a shot timer?--it is.
 
If "better" is "faster" then a pistol that releases the slide on a firm mag insert is "better", because it's faster to next shot than any other method.. Need a shot timer?--it is.

The question has always been, would it do it reliably...i.e. : every time without fail.

If not, than the H&K P7 would be the fastest. It releases the slide mechanically, as you tighten your shooting grip
 
Incoming, standard Dulvarian sized wall of text, complete with too many commas and parentheticals.

I use the SS after reloads, unless I hit the magic position and my Glock drops the slide without me touching it when I ram the magazine home. This is with all my pistols, and any pistol I have ever shot.

My Beretta Cougar (first carry gun) has an ambi safety, and slingshotting with that is liable to gouge your fingers enough to leave blood blisters. The SS is nice and wide. I have never missed it or failed to pick up a round when releasing. This is very similar to the Beretta 92 training mentioned above, for the same reason. Doing it with the safety OFF has a high probability of gouging your fingers, or engaging the safety. If you engage the safety, the hammer falls with the slide. You then have to take the safety off and fire the first shot DA. (And yes, I carried safety on. I practiced drawing and flicking the safety off and firing the first shot DA for hours on end until I felt comfortable doing it one handed, 100% of the time.)

My wife has an XD9 that I am making her proficient with. She has trouble with the slide release. As far as I know, and every XD I have ever handled, the SS took more force to release than other guns. So I taught her the slingshot method. It works for her. And after she pinched her hand doing it, I made her do it ten more times. The same skill will hold true if she picks up my Glock off the nightstand.

I have never had a single issue with any auto that I have ever picked up. I have never put any thought into using the controls, whether they be the mag release, SS, or safety. I have also never seen in person when using the SS did not successfully chamber a round with a properly inserted magazine. BTW, all the slingshotting in the world won't fix that error, and will likely cause the magazine to fall out, rather than just unseat more. (For what it's worth, once I seat the magazine, I leave my left hand holding the magazine against the gun while I release the slide. If it isn't seated properly, you will feel it move against your palm. A slight rotation from there with my strong hand and viola!, I'm holding in the Modified Weaver, certain that the magazine is seated and that a round is chambered.)

The only time that I even think about intentionally racking the slide is if it doesn't go bang when I pull the bang switch. Then it's T-R-B. I have never had an issue on the first round out of a handgun (centerfire). I have also never had a real stoppage that required a T-R-B other than when someone else loaded my mags with the purpose of inducing one for training. Which means I've never had one for real.

It does not matter what anyone, including me, says is a 'better method'. The correct method is the one that you have ingrained in yourself, with your brain and muscles and lots of repetition to develop muscle memory with the weapon you intend to use. It would take a stronger argument than "xxx school" teaches one way to make it reasonable for a person to change from their ingrained method. Like something that could potentially case them to shoot themselves in the hand while doing. We can all agree that such a method is both dangerous and wrong, and would probably either find cover or offer advice to the person we saw do it. Usually in that order.

Discussing probability that you will be picking foreign (to you) handguns off the ground, with loaded magazines no less, and how a particular method will work better in a hypothetical situation is kind of like every SHTF thread out there. (Unlikely to happen, and in the event that it does, there is very little you could have done outside of pure luck where your training would be of use.) Practicing with your gun, a lot, with a method that works for you until you don't even have to think about it is called 'training'. It doesn't have to come from a fancy tactical shooting school. It just takes time with YOUR GUN in your HAND and what WORKS.

I also call phooey on the fine motor skills not allowing you to get the job done. The 'examples' of people not being able to do something, like the dead aforementioned officer, is probably more of an example of being frozen or mentally incapacitated with fear or adrenaline. Training compensates for that. "Fight like you train, train like you fight" should sound familiar to a lot of people, for good reason. That is actually true, and is the only thing that I ever give as advice. So far, I have not found an instance where this did not hold true in any aspect of life. I'm only in my early thirties. I'll be sure to post if I find an instance that it didn't work. I might even write a novel (like most of my post lengths tend to indicate).

Without going into too much detail, the line of work that I am in intentionally and routinely runs ridiculously complicated drills on us with insanely high levels of forced decisions in very short time spans under high (forced) mental stress levels (that can be added to by people literally yelling in your face, or ear, as the case may be). When real situations happen, things tend to go very, very smoothly. Usually a let down from the drills, btw. Training to deal with high stress is possible, and I promise you that muscle memory can handle fine motor control for about thirty separate operations in the same sequential order, in under ten seconds. Nothing that I have experienced has required more than about than about thirty seconds of actions. And those that can't operate under those levels of stress find themselves in other places (in my job). And yes, my job has the one of highest arguable success ratios for these types of situations in our field, above and beyond any comparable civilian or other government agency.

*Disclaimer* Shooting sports where you are shooting at stationary targets and 'speed' is of the essence, one method may be 'faster' and may therefore be considered better. I concede this point with no hesitation.

*Question about disclaimer* If other targets are moving and engaging you with return fire, does anything matter other than your ability to hit COM on a moving target?

*Pure fantasy* That shooting simulator in GI Joe was awesome. Anyone know where I can get one?
 
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For me, the thumbs-forward hold on a 1911 puts the weak hand thumb over pretty close to the slide stop and seems natural as the pistol's coming back up after a reload...it's simply faster and more integrated as part of the process of reestablishing a firing grip.

+1(000)

Apparently there are some newfangled options out there, but I shoot and carry 1911s. With my grip, my weak hand thumb lands right on the slide stop and I cannot see why to do things differently. The slide is released as I'm re-establishing proper grip and the weapon is coming back up to fire.

I don't train to pick up random firearms and be able to operate them with diminished fine motor skills. I anticipate that if the rare chance presents itself that I have to use a firearm in a conflict, it will be the one in my posession, not something I "found" in a time of dire need.
 
"the Ninja One Hand chamber"

now THAT's what I love about gun forums
just when you start thinking you have heard it all.....
(I thunk it was just a joke until I googled up the video, pretty cool)

I do believe I will leave that one to the younger fellows, though, and stick with slide stop method when reloading
(I never was fast nohow)

PS
you reckon that fellow can curve a bullet in flight, too ?
I used to could do that
that's the reason I so often missed when trying to go-fast you know
(that's MY story, anyway, and I am sticking to it)
 
I had some FTF the first round using the slide stop, so I prefere to release the slide as fast as I can to chamber the first round.
 
As mentioned early, and it merits repeating, slingshotting is when you use the thumb and forefinger of your opposite hand, just like a slingshot.

The overhand method is the one usually taught for defensive applications. Why, you ask?

Mainly, (and this is important, so write it down) because it mimmicks the "tap, rack, bang" malfunction sequence that gets drilled into your head until it is a reflex.

Secondly, it is more reliable when your hands are cold, wet, dirty or bloody. It also works if your thumb is injured or partially missing. ;)
 
"the Ninja One Hand chamber"

now THAT's what I love about gun forums
just when you start thinking you have heard it all.....
(I thunk it was just a joke until I googled up the video, pretty cool)

While I am drawn to the outlandish, I would never post up a joke without a smilie...granted my point of view might be a little skewed ;)
 
1911 Colts

Looking at Gold Cups. Does the Trophy version have anything the National Match does not?
 
As mentioned early, and it merits repeating, slingshotting is when you use the thumb and forefinger of your opposite hand, just like a slingshot.

The overhand method is the one usually taught for defensive applications. Why, you ask?

Mainly, (and this is important, so write it down) because it mimmicks the "tap, rack, bang" malfunction sequence that gets drilled into your head until it is a reflex.

Secondly, it is more reliable when your hands are cold, wet, dirty or bloody. It also works if your thumb is injured or partially missing. ;)
In both my CCW class and IDPA training, the overhand method was the only method taught by ALL of the instructors at our gun club. We have close to 1,000 members, been around since the 1940's so it isn't some dinky outfit.

The slide lock release method was strongly discouraged because of what you mention here. Also, it is not the slide lock itself that wears out it is the groove in the slide. Hard to fix that without changing the locked position of the slide after the last shot.

JMHO

Dan
 
a) in a high stress situation the fine motor control necessary to slingshot the slide is less than that for hitting the smaller slide release.

The folks that spout this nonsense seem to think that the "fine motor skill" you had used to work the trigger AND the magazine release somehow disappears during that critical moment following your reload, but miraculously returns in time for you to to run the trigger.....:rolleyes:

OR...

"In case you pick up a slide-locked Walther PPK from a dead off duty officer and you find his spare mag, the overhand grasp will work, saving the day!"

I'd ask, "Why wouldn't I shoot the badguy with MY gun?"

You should know both, but utilizing the slide release is faster. And if you still have something to shoot at following a reload, then faster might be very, very important.
 
Also, it is not the slide lock itself that wears out it is the groove in the slide. Hard to fix that without changing the locked position of the slide after the last shot.
This is an example of "if you hear or read it often enough" people tend to believe it. This won't happen to any on this forum audience....:cool: However, a convenient rationale for the overhand method....
 
This is an example of "if you hear or read it often enough" people tend to believe it. This won't happen to any on this forum audience....:cool: However, a convenient rationale for the overhand method....
Bullcrap. I stated this because this is exactly what happened to a Berreta .380 and a Taurus PT92. The owners insisted on using the slide release on both guns and wore out the groove on the slide and ruined the last shot lock-back function.

Dan
 
This is an example of "if you hear or read it often enough" people tend to believe it. This won't happen to any on this forum audience....:cool: However, a convenient rationale for the overhand method....
People often forget that this happened with the Glock 17 when they were first imported. They didn't originally design the slide of the G17 to be released by using the slide stop...Gaston Glock's research, when putting together the features for a successful service pistol, showed him that the correct way to release the slide was by retracting it against sprng tension...and so didn't heat treat the slide stop notch .

It wasn't until they started receiving calls about slide stop failure, actually the notch failing, that they discovered that their Americans contracts were using the slide stop as a release. The extended slide stop of the G34 only makes the situation worst due to it's additional leverage...so buyers installing them, because Glock designed them to only lock the slide to the rear, accelerated the problem also.

Glock changed their heat treatment of their slides to meet contract demands
 
I only practice with two pistols, both of which have for my hands a very reachable slide lock release. I count my shots (discipline) and practice both the SLR and the "slingshot" method. When I reach empty my slide doesn't always lock back since my thumb is basically right there by/on the SLR. My habit is if the slide locks, I use the SLR to chamber, if not, slingshot seeing as I have no choice. I practice both so that it is now two situations I'm prepared for.
 
If the slide stop is designed as a stop only then why is an external lever included as part of the slide stop mechanism. A plausible reason may be the external lever acts as a mechanical override should the slide stop not drop down during retraction and release of the slide interfering with the slides forward movement.

Reference: The Modern Technique of the Pistol by G B Morrison / Jeff Cooper, Editorial Advisor (Copy Right 1991 ISBN 0-9621342-3-6)

Chapter 6 titled Manipulation page numbers 32 &33 concerning (Loading)

“The motion programed during loading should be the same one used when preforming tactical or speed reloads. One technique will do for all three. Keep it simple.”

“To chamber a cartridge, grasp the rear half of the slide with the support hand, with the palm over the top, the fingers on the far side and the thumb on the near side (VI-14).

Maintain a safe muzzle direction, keep the trigger- finger straight, depress the safety and rack the slide to the rear fully (VI-15)
Then lift the hand straight up and away (VI-16) this allows the slide to close under full spring pressure.--------------------------------------------------------------------------- Finally thumb the safety back to the on position-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------“
I believe the rational is one technique as a teaching tool applies.

Going back to the slide stop/slide release it is also plausible that it was designed as a not a secondary release mechanism but rather an either or if not the primary means of releasing the slide. The secondary may be retraction of the slide to release methodology.

I believe that either way of releasing the slide is dependent on circumstance and individual necessity. The Motor-Skill is BS its more reverting back to ones operational training that is ingrained rather than not being able to preform mental and physical tasking.
 
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The OP's question has nothing to do with consequences to a pistol's structure due to either method of release. He talking about Rob Leatham, fast reloads, etc. This is exactly what happens when the thread gets off-track....Now, my comment was based on steel 1911's, Colt's, Sistemas, and Star clones. You can utilize the slide release till the cows come home and it's not going to wear out. This has nothing to do with the OP's inquiry which was answered already...
 
I've seen this countless times now. The latest was watching Rob Leatham give a quick IPSC lesson ...in it he pulls back the slide back and releases it opposed to pushing down the slide stop on a fresh magazine to charge the weapon. Why do this?

To reduce mental load (decision-making) under stress, especially when clearing stoppages. It allows a shooter to progress more quickly through his/her OODA Loop and accomplish a number of similar tasks more quickly.

The only time I touch the slide lock is when I want to engage the slide lock.

Anytime I operate the slide I roll the pistol to the right & rack the slide - using the same movements I use to clear stoppages. It is an ingrained, intuitive action.

I grasp the slide using the overhand method. When I rack the slide I simultaneously push with my firing hand and pull with my support hand. I rack the slide energetically – as if I’m trying to rip the slide off the frame.

I load my pistol with the slide in battery and then roll & rack to chamber a round. It trains me to apply the extra effort needed to seat the magazine when the slide is in battery after clearing a doublefeed.

When my pistol doesn’t fire I immediately perform tap, roll & rack. If my pistol still doesn’t fire then I perform a Combat Reload, in which I roll & rack after I seat the magazine.

If I can’t insert the fresh magazine when I’m attempting to perform my Combat Reload I immediately put it between the ring & pinky fingers of my firing hand, and then roll the pistol to the right while simultaneously racking & locking the slide open. I rip out the stuck magazine; roll & rack three times to clear the action; insert, pivot & seat the fresh magazine; and then roll & rack to get the gun running.

I have no need to touch the slide lock unless I want to lock the slide open.

Having two different techniques - 1) manually releasing the slide lock to perform one task, and 2) racking and releasing the slide to perform another task – increases decision-making under stress because the shooter must decide what technique is appropriate for a particular situation. It may also lead to performing an action that is inappropriate if the wrong decision is made. (For example, the slide is in battery after clearing a doublefeed and the shooter attempts to release the slide lock – because he/she is intuitively accustomed to releasing the slide lock after seating a magazine when he/she loads the pistol. Another decision-making dilemma can occur if the slide unexpectedly goes into battery when the magazine is forcefully seated during a Combat Reload. A shooter who releases the slide lock is forced to make a decision what to do next. Whereas if the shooter is trained to seat, roll & rack, there is no decision to be made, and there’s no decision-making dilemma – the shooter simply rolls & racks as he/she has trained to do and drives-on. In addition a shooter in a hurry may inadvertantly release the slide lock BEFORE the magazine is seated and no cartridge is chambered.)

Having a single technique simplifies decision-making under stress and increases shooter quickness.
 
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