Why people should stop whining about high show prices ...

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saands

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I've heard several rants lately about the fact that there aren't any deals at shows anymore. I think that this is caused by the fact that we all have access to so much more pricing info these days and we expect to be able to buy at wholesale prices when we attend a show - of course we also want to buy without FFL fees, taxes and shipping :D That just isn't reasonable for two reasons. The first and most obvious is that there are costs associated with a piece arriving at a particular show and someone needs to be compensated for it. The second has become clear to me in the last couple of distance purchases I've made on used guns. There is a LOT of risk when it comes to buying surplus or used guns and every gun that is purchased from an importer carries the risk that it won't be pristine. At a show, that risk is borne 100% by the seller, as the buyer can look at it and just pass if it doesn't meet expectations. So, in addition to the cost of getting 20 pistols (let's say Star BM's or Makarovs) to a show, the seller now has to absorb the loss on the 19% from that batch that arrived all buggered up and need to be priced below wholesale to move in person.

I recently bought a piece from what I cosider to be a reputable online dealer ... one with whom I'd do business again. He had AT LEAST 10 different pics of it posted online AND he answered all my questions on the phone - and honestly. It turns out that it arrived with factory grips, but grips that were for the wrong model and that (upon very close inspection) were filed to fit :rolleyes: I wasn't thrilled with the condition as received and I wouldn't have paid that price in person. I'm sure that they would have taken it back (less shipping) but it wasn't worth the 2-way shipping and hassle to me. I got an EG Makarov a while back that was advertized as 98% finish. Well, I didn't ask, but I expected that the gun would have a little wear all over (or maybe a little concentrated holster wear) and would be about 98% ... I DIDN'T expect that the gun would be 100% PRISTINE except for the name of a silly previous owner that had been prominently engraved into the frame :barf: There is NO way that it would have gone home with me from a show with the engraving (or at least not for a fair price on a "typical" 98% gun). But ... these are the risks of buying sight unseen ... the advantages are that you typically get lower prices fi you are buying from someone like AIM or SOG ... and sometimes you get amazing deals (I got what looked to be an unissued Turkish Mauser in a small batch of "good/very good" Turks that I bought for project guns at under $50 a piece a couple of years ago).

Anyway, I just wanted to remind folks out there that the guys who show up at the local show rightly deserve to get prices above wholesale for their wares ... that's the premium we pay to be able to pick the one we get.

Saands
 
Part of why gun show prices seem high is because they are no better than gun store prices. This is because most of the show vendors are mobile gun stores (i.e., dealers), not individuals. Other than the fact that they have lots of potential buyers parading through their "store" at the show, their costs are higher than at home. They still have to pay the rent at the shop. They have to pay a booth fee (and you have to pay an admission fee). They have to pack their inventory up, put it out, and pack it back up again.

The advantage of a gun show to us is that we get to go to a "gun mall" where there are lots of gun shops in one place. Don't expect the prices to be bargains (although you can comparison shop on the spot). The individual seller is a minority there these days.

The whole analysis changes when you start to include the non-firearm (but gun-related) items available at the show that you may never find at your local shop.
 
Gun shows do suck, but...

There are about two or three dealers that I consider worth my time. They carry a wide selection of guns at decent prices. They are there to sell guns. Dark Sun and Trader Jerry's are two that come to mind.

The rest of the gun show is a bunch of junk at inflated prices. The only reason I bother to talk to these dealers is to hear the outrageous stories they tell. They just straight make crap up.

Ammo and cleaning supplies are what make me go to shows. Georgia arms for 10mm.

My local guns stores are terrible. They don't carry anything (try and find a cleaning jag). One went out of business because his prices were so high he'd sell about one gun a week. $500 for a CZ75B. Come on! $4.00 for a sleeve of small pistol primers, and then tries to tell me I won't find them any cheaper around town.

Also, I've noticed that dealers change prices for different shows. I think they base this on the area.
 
Hmmmm.....I dunno. The wife and I picked up a pair of Rock Island Armory 1911s for $295 each at a local dealer that had them in stock ($309 OTD), but some dealers were asking $450 for the same gun at the show. I go to all the shows knowing what a gun will cost me if I order it. I know shipping is typically $15 and my local FFL dealer fees are $25, so, when I can order a gun for, say $350, pay the $40 shipping and FFL fees, and get it for $390, why would I even want to entertain the joker at the show with offers when he's asking $550? I usually allow an extra $10-$30 to be able to have a used item in my hands for inspection, but I'm not giving away $100 to have it right then and now, especially if it is a brand new item. I do find some pretty good deals at shows, though. The trick is to know what a reasonable price is for an item and not let impulse buying get to you.
 
Hi there,

I've seen some decent "just above wholesale" on new guns maybe 10% prices at the local gunshow here where I live. Most of the local dealers discount the MSRP in varying amounts.

At the last show, the Organizer was getting $65.00/table with no electricity and the Convention Center was getting about $35.00 of that. If a larger vendor had an average of 4 tables for 2 days, he would have to sell quite a few guns to leverage a decent profit otherwise its not even worth it for him to be there.

Being knowlegable and knowing what is a "deal" is the key. Just because you know the wholesale value of a firearm doesn't mean anything. Everyone has to make a profit!

Chris
 
Henry wrote:
Part of why gun show prices seem high is because they are no better than gun store prices. This is because most of the show vendors are mobile gun stores (i.e., dealers), not individuals. Other than the fact that they have lots of potential buyers parading through their "store" at the show, their costs are higher than at home. They still have to pay the rent at the shop. They have to pay a booth fee (and you have to pay an admission fee). They have to pack their inventory up, put it out, and pack it back up again.

The advantage of a gun show to us is that we get to go to a "gun mall" where there are lots of gun shops in one place. Don't expect the prices to be bargains (although you can comparison shop on the spot). The individual seller is a minority there these days.
Click to expand...

Wow, Henry, have you been to a Cincinnati area gun show lately? I have attended about 50 shows in the last 10 years in Sharonville, Dayton, and Wilmington, most recently the Sharonville show last week end.

My experience has been that very good deals are available at the shows, better than most any store I have been in. It may be true that some dealers are mobile gun stores, and if so, that is one way they keep their prices low, i.e. no overhead at home. So in my view, more potential for show deals, not less.

Again, my experience is to expect bargains, especially on new guns, because there are multiple dealers with the same products, and guess who sells brand x when one table has it for $389 and the next table has it for $359?

The individual seller has always been in the minority at the shows at least in the shows of the last 10 years. Many times the private seller who rents a table has higher prices than the dealers, because there is no paperwork, and no taxes, so I don't worry about the lack of those kind of individual sellers.

I go to the various shows with different expectations, but always expecting to find a good deal. To the Sharonville show, I go expecting to be able to sell something, because there seems to be more buyers than sellers (also fewer tables; it is a fairly small show). Last week end's show had some new vendors who had some very good prices on handguns.

I go to the Dayton show expecting to find more private sellers, walking around that is, not necessarily with tables. There was a time when the Dayton show was bigger and maybe had more private sellers with tables.

I go to the Wilmington show expecting to find a different set of vendors, both dealers and private, and I have found good deals from both.

Just one example: I bought an NIB FN HP SFS 40 cal pistol thru gunbroker.com for $400 + $20 shipping + $10.65 FFL transfer for a total of $430.65. A dealer at last week end's Sharonville show had the exact same gun for $419.00 plus tax which would have made the total about $446, and you can inspect it, and take it home. I had to drive 20 miles to the dealer that charges $10 to transfer as well has the hassle of buying the money order and waiting for the shipment for something that is sight unseen. The show price in my book, was a bargain.

In my book, the shows are still the most fun way to find new toys, and bargains can still be had. poppy
 
I look at gun shows as gun flea markets. There's guns-a-plenty for me to look at and handle, often for the first time. I can see if I like the feel of something before trying to order it, and I can keep an eye out for the good deals that just shouldn't be passed up.

You should definately know the going price before you go to the gunshow, and what you're willing to pay.

Tom
 
Henry Bowman said:
The whole analysis changes when you start to include the non-firearm (but gun-related) items available at the show that you may never find at your local shop.
Click to expand...

Very true. This is especially true if you live in a smaller town with limited numbers of shops. I found snap caps at a gun show for $1 each last year! I also learned that he is a local vendor. I made sure to buy a bunch of them.
 
"Dark Sun and Trader Jerry's" ...and the other one that I can't think of are good.

OTOH, from what I've seen the local shops put on more staff when there's a gun show because people get frustrated and go there to buy a gun after hitting the show.

I know I've done that more than once with money burning a hole in my pocket because the shops stock the guns I like and have most, if not all, of the models/finishes/barrels/etc.

John
 
It used to be (many moons ago) that a gun show was a place to go for really exceptional bargains. Not any more. I chiefly attend gun shows now for the entertainment value, the social aspect, for the occasional trinket or somebody's three month old reading material and the very occasional gun "deal". It's still worth the gate price because, well, you just never know...
 
Not having attended any of the shows many moons ago, I'm wondering if the deals there just seemed exceptional because the wholesale pricing info was not available in those days (or at least not AS available). Just a thought.

Saands
 
Henry Bowman said:
The advantage of a gun show to us is that we get to go to a "gun mall" where there are lots of gun shops in one place.
Click to expand...

Yep, that's my take as well.

Prices are nothing special, but the selection is nice.

Mike
 
One of the main reasons I got to gunshows is to sell and trade the guns I already have. Anywhere is sell to you but it is really nice to be able to trade or sell. This to me is what gunshows are all about. Yes, it is good to be able to buy at good prices but I would give that up for the ability to sell or trade my old stuff.

When I complain about gunshow prices, I am comparing them to gunstore prices as well. The last show I was at have prices that were higher than most gunstores near me. Gunstores already have high markups and retail prices so what is going on with higher than gunstore prices at the local gunshows?

So many dealers won't even consider buying or trading anymore. I have asked people if they were interested in buying and before I even mentioned or showed what I had, they would say no. I wouldn't get to a price and they were already saying no way. I could have had a WWII 1911 that I only wanted $50 for but they would not have been interested. I know they get a lot of jokers that want to sell their used Mossberg 500 to the dealer for $300 that they bought at Wal-Mart for $200. That is not my problem. The dealers are going to have to adjust to the customers or there will not be a need for them anymore. They are throwing away a huge about of business by cutting out that part of the dealings.

I have spent a little time on the dealer's side of the table so I do have a better idea of what they have to go through that I used to but that is part of the biz. I helped out a friend that sells AR stuff at one show. I knew that he was the only one that had stripped lowers and he also had the best prices of anywhere within 200 miles for that type as well (Rock River). He was only asking like $109 for them when they were selling for $149 everywhere else and nobody could get them. He had about a dozen. He knew they would all sell out at that show based on selling out at all the other shows. I was manning the table and was surprised to see how many looky loos there were. There would be people pick them up and give them dirty looks and throw them back on the table. Tossing brand new product on the table! It wasn't even my stuff but I got angry. There would be people try and haggle and low ball me with lies like they could buy them for less somewhere. The price was fixed so when they couldn't haggle, they wouldn't buy. There would be people that just wanted to tell you that Rock River was not as good as Colt or Bushmaster and walk away. Ect, ect. Of course he sold out within the first 2 hours and many of the same morons would come back and ask if I had any more of the lowers. Why didn't they just buy them when they had the chance? Morons.

My point is, I used to think that the dealers were the biggest morons in the show but after seeing many of the customers habits, I have another view of them. Dealers were probably once nice and decent people but have become bitter and crabby because they have had to deal with this new breed of super retard. Only a few dealers can hack it and still be nice guys, these deserve your undying respect and business. The rest don't deserve anymore respect than they show you. If they are rude, walk away. If they say they buy and trade but when asked to do so refuse, you should ask them to take down their sign as it is false advertising.

Bottom line, it is business. Either they can hack it or they can't. The customer is not meant to feel sorry for the dealer. I am not going to pay 100% markup so some idiot that can't make it in any other line of work because he is so anti-social has a way to make a living. I pay a decent premium to be abole to have it right away, to be able to inspect it, to be able to make sure I get it without risk. I consider 30% over final price online (price + shipping + FFL =final price) to be about as high as I will go. Online people mark them up as well so this is give 40% markup at least to dealers. If they can't sell me a gun for 40% more than what they paid for it or should have paid for it, then I can't do business with them. If they are paying too much for the guns they are selling, that is not my problem.
 
I got my Marlin 25 .22lr for $90 in almost perfect condition at a gun show. The dealer was great....I was looking at the rifle and he said, "Make me an offer"

I LOVE that gun.....

Nowadays I usually look for ammo or parts. Georgia Arms usually comes to the Dulles show and the more I buy the bette the discount gets. :evil:


I guess part of a gun show is the SHOW part of it....where you get to LOOK at things and not always buy.
 
Henry Bowman said:
Part of why gun show prices seem high is because they are no better than gun store prices. This is because most of the show vendors are mobile gun stores (i.e., dealers), not individuals. Other than the fact that they have lots of potential buyers parading through their "store" at the show, their costs are higher than at home. They still have to pay the rent at the shop. They have to pay a booth fee (and you have to pay an admission fee). They have to pack their inventory up, put it out, and pack it back up again.
Click to expand...

Can't speak for everywhere but around here (Houston) at gun shows one dealer from a small town about an hour south of here almost always straight away sets the "price to beat" on any new gun. His show prices are lower than his in store prices by a significant amount on every gun.

Federal law requires you to be a dealer to be a gun "vendor". You can sell off your personal collection at gun shows and I've got some good guns from individuals at shows, but being a regular seller *and* buyer at gun shows will land you in hot water with BATF in rather short order, unless you can prove you've traded, or sold at a loss.

--wally.
 
Saands, back in the late 1980s and early 1990s, you could go to lots of gunshows and see the following.

Buy a case of 7.62X39 ammo and get a "fair" condition Chinese SKS for free.......And the case of ammo wasn't at a gouging price, either.

You could also get mint condition Russian SKS's for $120 out the door, all day long.

Of course that was before the idiotic import bans, too.

You'd also see all sorts of private citizens there selling their own guns, too.

However, thanks in part to the stupid Klinton gun laws of the mid 1990s, lots of folks quit selling their guns, and lots of dealer started to prey on the paranoia and charge big time prices for old, worn out crap.

Heck, in 1999, due to one set of possible idiotic gun laws proposed in Congress and supported by Klinton, there was one weekend where everyone thought that they might be going to the very last gun show ever.

And of course, the gun show dealers were pricing their stuff like it would be the very last gun show ever.

I have sworn off gun shows, unless we're talking about that freakin' gi-normous show in Tulsa twice a year.

The entry fees are simply too high for what gun shows are like these days.

hillbilly
 
Plus the high cost of gas getting there. But don't you really miss those old shows? Mind you, I'm old enough to be referencing shows held in the fifties, sixties and seventies-many moons ago!
 
Hey Saands, I am surprised that your original post is still getting some rants about high prices at gun shows. Maybe my experience in Ohio is unique, but dealers with high prices don't keep coming to shows here.

Maybe I attend too many shows, but I know all of the vendors, and when a new one shows up, they quickly learn that their prices have to be competitive or they will waste their table rent and time.

I have gladly gone with newbies and helped them find something to take home and I can inform them of what show to go to depending on what they want to accomplish.

albanian wrote:
So many dealers won't even consider buying or trading anymore. I have asked people if they were interested in buying and before I even mentioned or showed what I had, they would say no. I wouldn't get to a price and they were already saying no way. I could have had a WWII 1911 that I only wanted $50 for but they would not have been interested. I know they get a lot of jokers that want to sell their used Mossberg 500 to the dealer for $300 that they bought at Wal-Mart for $200. That is not my problem. The dealers are going to have to adjust to the customers or there will not be a need for them anymore. They are throwing away a huge about of business by cutting out that part of the dealings.
Click to expand...

As far as whether a dealer is willing to trade or buy, that of course depends on the dealer. There are regular dealers at the Ohio shows whose only business is selling new guns at discount prices, they never ask to see a gun that I am selling, and I never offer to sell or trade with them. It is obvious who these dealers are.

There are other dealers who do trade and buy, and they are the ones who ask to see what I am selling. They, of course, offer wholesale prices, and I have never sold or traded to an FFL dealer, because I figure I can do better with a private buyer or trader, because I have the patience to do that.

albanian also wrote:

Bottom line, it is business. Either they can hack it or they can't. The customer is not meant to feel sorry for the dealer. I am not going to pay 100% markup so some idiot that can't make it in any other line of work because he is so anti-social has a way to make a living. I pay a decent premium to be abole to have it right away, to be able to inspect it, to be able to make sure I get it without risk. I consider 30% over final price online (price + shipping + FFL =final price) to be about as high as I will go. Online people mark them up as well so this is give 40% markup at least to dealers. If they can't sell me a gun for 40% more than what they paid for it or should have paid for it, then I can't do business with them. If they are paying too much for the guns they are selling, that is not my problem
Click to expand...
.

I have been looking for a business to buy or start. If I thought I could really get 40% markup on guns I would get my FFL in a heart beat. Maybe I need to move to Indiana, if there are more like you. poppy
 
I'm moving to Indiana if I can get hugh profits like that. Last night I sold some of the CDNN 340.00 G17 that they had last Spring. I got 299.99 each for them. I did not realize the grass was so green two hours drive from here.
 
"I'm moving to Indiana if I can get hugh profits like that. Last night I sold some of the CDNN 340.00 G17 that they had last Spring. I got 299.99 each for them. I did not realize the grass was so green two hours drive from here."

I have NEVER seen a Glock at any gunshow sell for $299. If I did see one, I would buy it right away. I know the $340 Glocks you are talking about and those are the same ones that I see at the shows for $400 or more. The Fort Wayne show really bites. The Indy show is better and sometimes the Muncie show even has some stuff worth buying but I haven't done much buying, selling or trading at the Ft Wayne show in a while because dealers want to sell for top dollar and most of the time won't give you 50% of fair market value for your gun. You could go and buy one of the $340 Glocks at the show and pay $400 then turn around and try and sell it. You would be lucky to get an offer over $200! I am not kidding, it is stupid all the time there.

I understand business and profits but I don't get why they will pass on a deal that will make them $100 because they want to make $300. If they would deal with the guy for $100, they would do much more business than just waiting around and trying to make that one big score. I don't see many guns changing hands at the FT Wayne shows anymore. I have been to some smaller shows where people were really moving them. The profit margins were lower but you get repeat customers if you make it worth their time to attend.

With the internet, we don't need to take the abuse we have taken for so long. Gun dealers have a bad rep because a lot of them are jerks. Not all but enough that it is not hard to find a class A ******* dealer in just about every town in America. I'm not going to get into it but some of them are little more than crooks and liers. I have been asked to leave gunstores before because I disagreed with the lies the dealer was telling me or my friends. I am not a trouble maker but I am not going to let some moron tell me lies to my face and not say something.
 
I sold them online. A gunshow in my area would have been too much of a loss. I tried selling them with extra hi caps for 350.00 out the door and never even had a looker at the last two shows. This is Illinois so hand gun sales are not a good money maker.

I have had a couple of email that were a little insulting since this was posted. Sometimes it is better to cut your losses. I can take the money that I get back from the guns and put it towards other things that do turn a profit. It sucks, some times you win some times you lose.
 
"guess who sells brand x when one table has it for $389 and the next table has it for $359"

A friend of mine and I always talk about this. I know some will play a little more for a nicer seller and for someone who they think will stand behind their product, but by and large people go for the cheaper price. How do they guys charging $20, $30, $40 more for the same generic product even cover the cost of their table?
 
albanian said:
With the internet, we don't need to take the abuse we have taken for so long. Gun dealers have a bad rep because a lot of them are jerks.
Click to expand...
I could not agree more.

There are some really nice vendors at gun shows and some real jerks. I was at a gun show last year with my wife and two boys. The place was pretty dead. I was looking at a gun and overheard my 10 year old son behind me asking the vendor how much a little pistol was. The guy lashed out and said "What do you care, you can't buy it anyway". I am not a confrontational guy either but I told my son to walk away and then proceeded to let the guy have it. He started telling me that it was people like me that voted in the gun show bills, etc. :scrutiny:
I told him how wrong he was and that was the future of gun ownership he was talking to. He ended up apologizing.

Not everybody is this way but guys like this sure take the fun out of it. Most of these guys are pretty poor business men anyway, either that or they get attached to their guns.

I have been to about 100 gun shows in my life and I have only bought two guns from them. Most of the time it is accessories.
 
hotpig said:
I have had a couple of email that were a little insulting since this was posted. Sometimes it is better to cut your losses. I can take the money that I get back from the guns and put it towards other things that do turn a profit. It sucks, some times you win some times you lose.
Click to expand...
That right there is what I am talking about. Good business sense.:)
 
I attend the Saxet gun show here in San Antonio every month religiously.

I have bought 6 pistols and traded just as many there over the past year for great deals, not to mention countless rounds of ammo., holsters, speedloaders, ammo boxes, etc etc etc.

The trick is to look at EVERY gun on EVERY table. The deals seem to be found are on guns at the private sellers tables, NOT at the big dealer tables.

The private sellers are usually more willing to negotiate on selling price. Most of the big dealer tables do not haggle at all.

But like I said you have to look at EVERYTHING in order to find that one needle in the haystack.

for example...

At the last show I bought a very slightly used Para Ordinance P10-.40 for $450.00 with 2 mags and a box. (blue book said gun in 95% condition should sell for around $500.00, this gun is an easy 98%) This is a $700 gun new and the thing looked like it had only been shot a few times. I found it after 3 hours of looking, and bought it from a private seller who only had 5 or 6 guns on his table. He was basically selling off the guns he did not want anymore. He had it priced at $500.00 but after haggling a bit let me have it for $450.00.

I LOVE going to the shows. 90% of the fun is finding that GREAT deal. Some times you do, most of the time you don't, the thrill is the hunt!:p

The trick is to go to the shows with low expectations and you will never be disappointed. If the seller is too proud of his guns, thank him for his time and move on. I can't tell you how many times a seller has stopped me later in the day and offered me a lower price on something I wanted.

Just my .02...
 
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