Why REHOLSTER a CCW?

[NMGlocker]

Say you are approached by someone who is smaller than you and they have a knife and demand your wallet.
You draw your pistol but before you can put the front sight on him he throws the knife far far away.
Now since he is no longer armed (and smaller than you) there is no longer justification for deadly force. He isn't running away, but he isn't attacking you either.
Whatcha gonna do?
You can't stare him down forever, and you can't just walk around town with a pistol in your hand, and you sure can't lay it down on the ground while you fish your cheap clip holster out of your pants. It's hard to dig a cell phone out of your pocket and dial 911 while holding a pistol in your primary hand. If you just stuff it into your waistband, what happens if he rushes you? Weapon retention is nill in your waistband (not to mention the possibility of an AD).
Myself, I'd gain some distance, reholster and have both hands ready to either go "hands on" or transition to alternative force.
Not having the ability to easily reholster severly limits your options.

 

[Cosmoline]

Keep the pistol pointed at him and back away. Once a safe distance away, get ahold of the cops. No way would I lower my aim after being threatened by someone with a knife, even if he appeared to have thrown it down. How do I know he's really unarmed? He just threatened me, and he's not leaving. So even if he appears to have thrown an object on the ground I'm not going to assume I'm safe. In fact if he rushes me I'll assume he still has the blade and kill him. Under no set of circumstances would I re-holster until I was well away from him.

 

[NMGlocker]

How do I know he's really unarmed? He just threatened me, and he's not leaving. So even if he appears to have thrown an object on the ground I'm not going to assume I'm safe. In fact if he rushes me I'll assume he still has the blade and kill him.

You really need to learn about lethal force justification.
You cannot "assume" anything when using lethal force.
You really need to get some professional training and learn more about deadly force....... otherwise you could be headed to prison.

 

[ChickenHawk]

Slightly Off Topic Correction

McGunner said:

In Texas, it's illegal to carry in a post office, sporting event, place whose income 51% from sales of alcohol, ... <snip>

A common misconception. Texas law does NOT prohibit carrying your concealed handgun in a Post Office if you have a CHL.

Cheers,
ChickenHawk

 

[mzmtg]

My USP goes in and out of the holster when I get in and out of the car. The gun isn't going to do me much good if I'm strapped in and sitting on it. It rides between the seat and the console.

Having a Kydex IWB makes the unholster/re-holster routine a cinch.

 

[Texfire]

McGunner said:
Quote:
In Texas, it's illegal to carry in a post office, sporting event, place whose income 51% from sales of alcohol, ... <snip>

A common misconception. Texas law does NOT prohibit carrying your concealed handgun in a Post Office if you have a CHL.

Cheers,
ChickenHawk

Actually more complicated than that. It isn't against Texas law to carry in federal facilities as it's neither listed as a prohibited local or a defense against prosecution. Whether it is illegal or not depends on an opinion issued by the local US attorney's office. So in specific counties it may be illegal, but in other counties it may not be. Here's a relevant quote from an Texas lawyer's take on this issue.

One must also realize that federal laws are not often enforced. Many local police often will not alert federal authorities to violations of federal laws. Even when they do, the US Attorney's office, often does not trouble itself with prosecuting them. They consider themselves too important and busy to concern themselves with "minor" cases. I am certain this is why the DPS told you what they did. They know our state penal code well, but federal laws, not really. Remember, reliance upon police agencies (or even their attorneys') "opinions" on the law is NO defense if a court disagrees with that opinion. We are all presumed to "know the law" and ignorance thereof is no excuse. This doctrine worked fine in the days when laws were few and simple. Not so today. Not even lawyers and courts can agree on what the law is.

Tex

 

[BullfrogKen]

Not to be a smart-@$$.

But, it seems like any reason folks have come up with as an advantage, you dismiss and scoff. So, why ask if you have your mind already made up?


Reholstering during training and stability are the key reasons for me having a leather, metal reinforced mouth holster. And, I carry OWB in a Sparks Road Runner . . . . concealability isnt an issue, it hides fine.

 

[Majic]

Which is why I said you should set it down in plain view. You want your arms up AND you want the cops to see the firearm on the ground or truck or table. If you're worried about scratching a truck after killing someone, you need help!

What the LEOs want to see is both your hands so they know there is no threat to them. You can then tell them before they approach you that you have a loaded weapon. They can then make the decision to allow you to remove the weapon or they can do it themselves.
Would you lay the weapon down if there were witnesses about or people coming up to help out?

 

[Cosmoline]

Not to be a smart-@$$.

But, it seems like any reason folks have come up with as an advantage, you dismiss and scoff. So, why ask if you have your mind already made up?

I'm just kicking things around.

Would you lay the weapon down if there were witnesses about or people coming up to help out?

I'd set it nearby once in a safe location. I wouldn't set it next to the body. I definately wouldn't pack it again as I don't want to be killed by LEO's.

You can then tell them before they approach you that you have a loaded weapon.

You're braver than me! THe words "I HAVE A WEAPON" are not the ones I want coming out of my mouth when the cops arrive. Cops who have just seen a dead man. It doesn't take much imagination to know how THAT could be misinterpreted, with tragic results for moi. You're much safer unloading the firearm and setting it in plain sight, then reaching for the sky.

You really need to learn about lethal force justification.
You cannot "assume" anything when using lethal force.

Of course you're able to make reasonable assumptions. Do you think you need to feel the blade in your belly before you can assume it's a real knife? Besides, you just told me to assume he had a knife and demanded money. What's your point, anyway? And why would someone demand my money, appear to throw the knife away and then stand there? In the extremely unlikely event that did happen, I'd be perfectly justified keeping a bead on him as I left. It would be madness to reholster.

 

[Saevar]

Cosmoline, how do you figure you're any safer saying "I'm unarmed"?

Why would the police believe you are, in fact, unarmed if they suspect you just killed someone? Sure, there is gun you put down in the open. But they have no way of knowing if that one is yours or the dead guy's. Nor do they know how many guns were being carried by the people on the scene.

I suppose if, when the police arrive, you spin to face them and scream "I HAVE A PISTOL!" your chances of being shot are probably higher than otherwise. Note that your chance of being shot in this instance isn't linked to the fact of you actually being armed.

I suspect that some law enforcement would prefer having a weapon set down in plain sight. I also suspect that some law enforcement would feel safer if you reholstered so that no one else can pick up the pistol and you informed the police, calmly, that your legally carried weapon is secured. I'd be picking the option that makes me feel more comfortable, since I can't know how the LEO are going to feel when they arrive. Either way, I'd be asking the police when they arrive how they want to proceed.

 

[Cosmoline]

I don't want my hand on ANY firearm once the cops are there. I'm just not willing to roll those dice.

 

[Vex]

Whatever happened to the creed, "Better to have it and not need it..." that I thought was very prominent amongst pro-ccw people?

Having to reholster and secure your weapon quickly is something that should be practiced until it's second nature. There are numerous reasons why it's better to put the gun back where you found it, because every other option is unsecure and could lead it to be misused. How do you expect to be able to drive a car with the gun just flopping around in your waistband or on the passenger seat? What are you going to do with it when you need to do CPR on someone? What about climbing a fence, or swimming, or running through a dense forrest?

If you can't reholster your firearm, you are limiting yourself to one free hand because you never learned how to reholster your weapon. How many things can you think of that you can do faster with one hand than two? Not many. Can you dial a phone with one hand? Can you get your keys out of your right pocket when your gun is in your right hand? Can you open a multi-lock door with one hand? Who here has practiced running, jumping, swimming, and climbing with one hand free and another holding a gun? Who here has better balance when you're running with a gun in your hand? Who here has practiced running with a gun and not pulling the trigger accidentally? It could be a liability.

It just doesn't make logical sense to purposely limit your options like that....

 

[ShackleMeNot]

You are sure putting up quite the noble fight in defense of your inferior holster.

 

[lastcavalier]

ShackleMeNot, ease up a bit.

Cosmo started/continued this thread because he finds very stiff holsters to be uncomfortable. Knowing the recommendation that one use a stiff holster to aid the one-handed re-holster, he took the next logical step by contemplating the need for the one-handed re-holster. Cosmo continues to ask questions of people trying to expand the ideas.

Thus is the Socratic method, an excellent way to learn. Cosmo, thanks for the thread and for pursuing it, it's helped me think through the situation.

Try to remember that these threads are not only for the benefit of those participating in the discussion, but also for the lurker-types like myself who prefer to sit back and listen.

That said, please continue arguing the point, but argue the point, not the man.

 

[ChickenHawk]

Texfire wrote:

Actually more complicated than that. It isn't against Texas law to carry in federal facilities as it's neither listed as a prohibited local or a defense against prosecution. Whether it is illegal or not depends on an opinion issued by the local US attorney's office. So in specific counties it may be illegal, but in other counties it may not be. Here's a relevant quote from an Texas lawyer's take on this issue.

Well, since the whole point of concealed carry is to protect myself and my loved ones from harm, I guess I'll chance it where Texas does not prohibit it and take my chances on what might happen if I ever am forced to use deadly force.

I'm certainly not going to disarm in "ambiguous zones" just because I don't know who the local prosecutor is. For that matter, I'd say that I consider all areas to be entirely non-ambiguous based on the Texas statutes. If I ever have to use deadly force, the fact that I was in a post Office will probably be the last thing I am worried about!

Regards,
ChickenHawk

 

[Texfire]

I wasn't advocating that you disarm or anything of the sort, just passing on a tidbit from my CHL instructor that I found interesting for your information. Do with it what you will.

Tex

 

[Cosmoline]

It's all food for thought, and I think there are some areas here where none of us have given enough consideration. There is apparently no SOP when it comes to what to do with your firearm AFTER the shooting. I'm going to call Gresham this Sunday and toss the issue out to the wider world.

It's also pretty apparent that the quality and selection of high ride belt-attached IWB's is better than the selection of deep concealment clip-ons. I still haven't found anything better than my large semi Uncle Mike's. Though some of the Kydex options are interesting.

Part of the divergence may lie in how we use our concealment holsters. For me I *ONLY* use it when in the city. Anywhere else I go with an outside leather holster. I'm also not an LEO, so I don't have to draw and reholster from the CCW in town to use cuffs or whatnot. I just have it there and make sure I can draw quickly if I need to. Otherwise I don't give it much thought and I certainly don't draw it in town without a darn good reason.

 

[SteveS]

If I am at home and the threat has ceased, I would certainly place my gun down with the action open. Out in public, depending on the circumstances, I doubt I would do this, especially if there were other people milling about. I would place it back in the holster and wait for the police to arrive. When they did arrive, I would keep my hands visable and wait for their questions/instructions. I don't see having my gun on the groud as making me any safer, as there is no reason for them to assume that it was mine, or take me word if I said it was mine.

 

[Bix]

Cosmo said:

There is apparently no SOP when it comes to what to do with your firearm AFTER the shooting.

Actually, numerous training classes address this very issue in their POI. FWIW, those that I've attended (LFI/Ayoob and DTI/Farnam come to mind) stress the critical importance of being able to reholster your pistol one-handed without looking.

 

[Cosmoline]

But the LEO's I've talked to (including the nice fellow who was aiming an AR at me when responding to a DV call I'd phoned in) have made a point of putting the unloaded firearm down on the ground some distance away, with instructions that I should not touch it until they are gone. As far as I can tell, that's how they like to keep things when they're responding to calls involving violence. In the dark with someone dead, things can get really dicey and triggers can get squeezed. Best not to take the chance. Unload your iron and put it down, then raise your hands high. Don't twitch and don't make any sudden movements. I've never heard Mas' doctrine one way or the other, but *HE'S* not the one looking down the barrel of an AR with some 20-something cop on the other end. He's also an LEO himself, which as I noted requires reholstering a lot more.

 

[Charles S]

A reference to reholster ease in another thread got me thinking. I guess I've just never paid any attention to whether or not I can reholster my piece in a CCW rig. I figure if it's coming out in the wide world, it won't be going back in my holster. If something bad happens and the cops come, I assume I will be setting it in plain sight and holding my hands high so's I don't get shot.

Am I missing something? Why would ease of re-holstering ever be a factor in a ccw rig?

I would be willing to bet you have never taken a handgun class. Take a defensive handgun class from LFI, Gunsight, Thunder Ranch, Jeff Farnham, Jim Cirillo, and then let me know if you feel the same way.

I would also be willing to bet you don't practice shooting from the holster much either. Take a day and go shoot a couple of hundred rounds utilizing your holster to present and aim and shoot. Again, after you are done let me know what you think.

I disagree that there is no use in reholstering a weapon. What if you need to do something with two hands? You can't just put the weapon down. When it comes out, it needs to be in your hand and under your control, or back in the holster, secured and under your control. You can't just stuff it into your waistband like a gangsta, it need to be secured so that if you have to do any strenous activity, it can be done without your weapon falling out of it's holster.

+1

There are so many possible scenarios where you might need to re-holster one handed that I will not attempt to address them all.

Again, get some professional training, and spend some real time in practice utilizing your holster. Then let us all know if you still like a cheap holster that will not let you re-holster your gun.

Charles

 

[BrainOnSigs]

A few comments not directed at anyone. My experience is from 5 years of CCing, several defensive/tactical courses, personal friend's experiences, discussions with DAs and discussions with police officers.

1) Buy a good holster. Weapon retention.....comfort....longevity......all need to be considered. I prefer leather but many kydex holsters are proven. You will need to draw and reholster many times to break-in the new holster properly while getting a feel for how it works. It drives me crazy when someone buys a $700 combat handgun then sticks it in a $15 holster and wonder why there are issues.

2) If you haven't taken any training courses. Do it! You will need a good holster since any good course will require you to draw, shoot and reholster. How are you going to become proficient in defending yourself/family if something bad happens? Try drawing from concealment 50 times in a row. How many times do you grab shirt or snag on something? Don't stop...keep drawing. This is what will happen when you are in a bad situation. There aren't any "do overs." Reholstering is important from a safety and a training standpoint.

3) Retain your weapon after a shooting. You need to keep it under control for your safety and the safety of others. Your adrenaline is sky high and you probably won't keep track of it. Take a deep breath and carefully decock or lock (if applicable) and reholster it out of sight. When the police arrive keep your hands in plain sight and announce that you have reholstered your weapon and it is on your (fill in the blank).

4) If you pull your gun and a BG splits. Don't leave. Call the police. (I'll assume that you are legally carrying). I repeat CALL the police! Will you be delayed? Certainly. Will it be a hassle? Possibly. Maybe they will catch the BG with your description and protect some helpless sheeple from getting hurt. I have seen (thru a friend) what could happen if you don't. An arrest, all his guns confiscated, loss of his CHL and several court battles. This was due to a transient, who pulled a knife on him, called the police after he left and told his side (lies) of the story. It has been a nightmare. Even the hammerhead DA told him that the person calling the police gets his story in first (and is usually believed). Always carry a cell phone when CCing. Just free words of advice. Take 'em or leave 'em.....

 

[Charles S]

BrainOnSigs,

Excellent post.

Charles

 

[carry2011]

Say you are approached by someone who is smaller than you and they have a knife and demand your wallet. You draw your pistol but before you can put the front sight on him he throws the knife far far away. Now since he is no longer armed (and smaller than you) there is no longer justification for deadly force. He isn't running away, but he isn't attacking you either. Whatcha gonna do?

Nothing dictates the idiot won't have yet another weapon stuffed down there. The mere fact that one weapon was tossed doesn't mean a whole lot. He's no longer apparently armed, which precludes any overt shooting. However, a felony assault with a deadly weapon has just occurred. That guy is going to do time.

As for the bad guy, he's remaining face down under citizen's arrest until the police arrive, quiet to the last, with me at 8-9yds and the gun pointed just off to the side (from his backside). Of course, I will remain on the phone with dispatch, to ensure they have my CCW number pulled up, can confirm my description to the LEO's ... and generally can help me not get killed by unthinking LEO's.

Two risk areas: bad guy ignoring the risk and either fleeing or coming after me; and, the LEO's not having enough composure to accept a legally-armed CCW defending himself. That goes with the territory.

In short: I simply will not allow a bad guy to continue to be a threat to me, not when he's been willing to take a life. But that's just me.

 

[vanilla_gorilla]

BrainonSigs has it correct.

I think it is bordering on silly to unload and lay your weapon down to cater to responding officers. What happens if the action is not over and the police aren't there? What do you do? Before you respond that no such thing would happen, remember there are still many families that are quite clannish, and if they are nearby, they will likely not take kindly to you ventilating their kinfolk, regardless of what he was trying to do to you.

I think the best procedure is to safety, or decock your weapon, as the case may be, and reholster. When the blue lightsa rrive, your weapon should be out of sight (holster) and your hands high. Explain to the officer about your weapon and it's location. They'll take it out of your holster.

Now that that rabbit has been chased, back to holsters: I agree with the others. Buy a quality holster and practice with it. If your life means enough to you to buy a handgun to protect yourself, a good holster isn't much more. I've learned my lesson. Buy once, cry once. Reholstering is a valid issue, and I fail to see why one would pick an inferior holster. Even top quality holsters with no reinforcing band are likely to provide a little assistance with reholstering, but if it's a pain in the butt to reholster, are you going to practice with it? Unlikely.