I was wondering while I was researching the p320, why doesn't sig sell the commando but they sell ar15's? Same goes for companies like H&K and so on. Why not sell their own proprietary guns like FN does? I can't personally see myself purchasing a sig ar when I can just build my own for cheaper and get more out of it. This becomes especially jarring in H&K's case cause the only way to get a 91 or any variation of it is through custom shops for thousands.
Why so many ar 15s?
- Thread starter Oolong
- Start date
- Status
The AR-15 is the most common platform in America. They sell. And not all AR's are created equal. If I were to buy another factory AR and had to choose between a Sig M400 and say a DPMS or Diamondback I would choose the Sig M400 all day long. It doesn't hurt that living in my area almost everyone knows someone at Sig that can get a 50% off or win an auction.
I do agree though that building can get you more for less but a lot of people don't even though its simple.
I do agree though that building can get you more for less but a lot of people don't even though its simple.
FL-NC
Member
The AR is one of the most popular guns in America. They are also easy to work on or build if you have the inclination to do so, and the availability of aftermarket stuff (even though a lot of it is junk) attests to this, as well as offering infinite options. This all equates to a bunch of $ changing hands in a competitive market.Right now you can get the Ruger or S&W basic versions for $400, or spend 10 times that amount for something nicer.
Hanzo581
Member
Sig used to sell a line of rifles similar to the Commando. I bought the Sig 556 similar to the one below from them years ago. I love the rifle outside of the weight and crappy stock...but it doesn't do anything better than my AR15 does. It apparently didn't sell well so they discontinued it along with the rest of the line. It's just tough to compete with the cost, practicality and modularity of the AR15.
Not my pic, just grabbed it on google
FN makes AR-15s for the govt and you can buy civilian type AR's from them as well.
First, Eugene Stoner's rifle was designed from the get go to be easily produced using new but developed industrial technology at the time. Gas impingement rifles are a bit cheaper to produce than piston based, the barrel headspacing using a barrel nut eliminated several production steps, using composites for the stock, etc. meant using molds rather than dealing with wood issues, and so forth.
Second, the economies of scale from the whole host of subcontractors that made AR parts has made the rifle cheaper than Sig, FN, or HK, or any other can produce their model. Note that Springfield Armory cannot make a M1A cheaper than an AR because the design is more complicated and more expensive to produce (compare the work required to machine a steel Garand or M1A receiver versus aluminum forgings used in the AR) and the company does not produce enough to get economies of scale relative to the AR. One good comparison is the AR-10 platform which uses the same technologies as the AR-15 which makes is potentially a bit cheaper to produce than the M1A, however, because there is not a unified platform nor significant demand, those making the AR 10 don't get the same economies of scale. Thus we see that AR15's are cheapest, AR10 quite a bit more, and then we get to other platforms. The economies of scale and ease of production has also made AR15's cheaper than Mini14's.
Thus, the marginal, if any improvements in ergonomics, function, accuracy, etc. for the average consumer of Sig, FN, Tavor, HK, Mini-14 platforms is outweighed by significantly higher costs of those platforms (double or more) without commensurate (doubling of utility from the "better" Sig, FN, Tavor, etc. platforms) for the average consumer. Simply put, the average consumer does not perceive the value from the alternative platforms as worth their current price--hence they are niche products and unlikely to break the pattern without some large consumer of military rifles such as the U.S. Military, etc. adopting them and/or new manufacturing technologies that alter the mfg cost equation. AR's are simply good enough for most people which means that makers of firearms either resign themselves to niche products at higher prices or play in the AR market where competitive forces constrain their prices.
As usual, YMMV.
bangswitch
Member
Why so many AR-15's? It's the Erector Set of firearms. Whatever you get, by whoever, off the shelf.........don't like one of the parts? Dozens of aftermarket pieces by twice that many manufacturers available to swap with. Little ol' .223 not what you like? Take your pick: 6mm BR, 6.5Grendel, .300BLK, 6.8SPC, .458SOCOM, .50 Beowulf. Build it from the ground up, or change what you have. Don't want to file paperwork for every AR you own? Just keep one lower and make as many uppers, cash and carry, as you want. Everything from point defense, SHTF, HD, CQB, long range, right there in one package. Even bring home the bacon/venison in places where the Feds let you use one for that.
Even out here anyone that owns and ar, usually owns 2 or 3, and usually atleast as many uppers. They sell well, and at least here you cant got to the range with a different type of semi, without someone saying "oh, you shoulda got an AR they are cheaper/better/etc." Alot of guys believe that stuff and go buy an AR.
bassjam
Member
Both H&K have offered their own rifles here, they've just never sold that well. They are often much more expensive than even their AR15 variants, and don't really offer anything that much better than an AR, so why would consumers pay for it? I have SIG's 522, which is a .22 version of their 556 which I was interested in until I discovered it was heavier and typically not as accurate as an AR. H&K had their SL8 too for awhile, but again it was never a hit. I think as much of that was because it was designed to fit around the Clinton gun ban.
The FN SCAR has been a hit. I think part of that is because not only does it function differently than an AR, it also looks very different. And it offers some real advantages to the AR, enough so that our special forces use them in some capacity.
Honestly that's probably the real driver, gun owners in the US like to buy what they see our military using.
The FN SCAR has been a hit. I think part of that is because not only does it function differently than an AR, it also looks very different. And it offers some real advantages to the AR, enough so that our special forces use them in some capacity.
Honestly that's probably the real driver, gun owners in the US like to buy what they see our military using.
Hanzo581
Member
Is the FN SCAR a commercial success? I know plenty of people that want one, including me, but won't pay the outlandish price.
Same reason there's so many brands and types of cigarettes and cigars. Or alcoholic beverages. Or ice cream and cars.
Addiction goes down many paths. Some are harmless to those having them.
Then there's there's wannabe's, too.
Human behavior has many ways.
Addiction goes down many paths. Some are harmless to those having them.
Then there's there's wannabe's, too.
Human behavior has many ways.
There is different quality AR-15s but they have standardized parts made by tons of competing vendors.
If you want a modern firearm that you have the ability to modify in the future however you want with all these parts you want an AR-15.
Decent ones are reliable, and while it doesn't do anything several other firearms do, even some that I may like slightly better, modifying the AR to suite any role and get any level of quality part you want for it is easy and those parts will be available at reasonable prices for quite some time.
Many similar level quality firearms you cannot say that about. They not only cost more up front, but you cannot modify them as readily with tons of aftermarket support, and instead are reliant on very expensive oem parts or a couple companies that put out parts for what they know is a costly rifle and have less competition.
If you want a modern firearm that you have the ability to modify in the future however you want with all these parts you want an AR-15.
Decent ones are reliable, and while it doesn't do anything several other firearms do, even some that I may like slightly better, modifying the AR to suite any role and get any level of quality part you want for it is easy and those parts will be available at reasonable prices for quite some time.
Many similar level quality firearms you cannot say that about. They not only cost more up front, but you cannot modify them as readily with tons of aftermarket support, and instead are reliant on very expensive oem parts or a couple companies that put out parts for what they know is a costly rifle and have less competition.
Many have already noted it is the most popular platform in the country. And that popularity may create a self-perpetuating cycle.
In 1979 and 1980, I bought Ruger Mini-14s. I gave one to my father when I left home for good (take that in many ways) after graduate school (after graduating high school at age 17, I was never under his roof for more than five weeks at a time). I still have my Mini-14 with a Choate pistol grip stock. It is my magazine-fed "modern sporting rifle" and I plan on using it until I am to old and feeble to lift it.
But, in 2015/2016, fearing anti-gun politicians would succeed in getting "modern sporting rifles" banned or at least so heavily restricted there would be no point to them, I instructed both of my sons to purchase "entry level" ARs that I would pay for. My reasoning was that since the AR-15 was the most popular platform in the country, ammunition, magazines and spare parts would be readily available even after a ban and in a SHTF scenario, someone was more likely to be able to scavenge parts for an AR than something like an Mini-14 or M1A, much less a Styer AUG or HK91.
someguy2800
Member
There was a good while there that every cnc machine shop in the area was making AR15 parts and running 3 shifts to keep up. I think there are quite a few companies selling AR's that didn't actually manufacture a single piece of it. They just buy all the components from a subcontractor and put a production line together to put them together and test them. Its not that easy for a proprietary design.
Gun Master
Member
If you had to choose between the Ruger or the S&W AR, which would it be and why ?
FL-NC
Member
I would get the S&W. Not that I have a problem or lack faith in Ruger- in my opinion Ruger makes great products and I'm totally satisfied with everything I got from them. But- the Ruger SR 556 uses some type of "weird" (different) ring at the rear of the handguard to retain it. I honestly don't know if it is compatible with aftermarket HGs like Magpul KAC, etc. So out of my own ignorance of this fact, I would pick the S&W sport. IF- IF its compatible with such other handguards, I would get whichever one is cheaper. If they are the same price, I would flip a coin or use a similar scientific assessment.
imashooter
Member
Why? Really? Because we can do this dammit! 
bangswitch
Member
I wanna see the gun case that thing fits in. Love It.Why? Really? Because we can do this dammit!
Gun Master
Member
As previously posted, I'd like to know where S&W and RUGER AR-15's are selling for around $400 ?
Bud's had S&W for around $550, and Ruger for over $600.
Been looking .......?
Bud's had S&W for around $550, and Ruger for over $600.
Been looking .......?
Invisible Swordsman
Member
"As previously posted, I'd like to know where S&W and RUGER AR-15's are selling for around $400 ?
Bud's had S&W for around $550, and Ruger for over $600.
Been looking .......?"
Early last week Palmetto State Armory had S&W M&P 15 Sport II's for 399.99 with free shipping. They sold out in a couple of hours.
Bud's had S&W for around $550, and Ruger for over $600.
Been looking .......?"
Early last week Palmetto State Armory had S&W M&P 15 Sport II's for 399.99 with free shipping. They sold out in a couple of hours.
v35
Member
- Joined
- Feb 8, 2006
- Messages
- 910
All that stuff and it still doesn't have a shoulder thing that goes up.
Mosin Bubba
Member
- Joined
- Jul 5, 2012
- Messages
- 1,936
People have pointed out reasons why businesses like producing the AR. But the stick to that carrot is that any new military-style semi auto these companies wil be judged against the AR, and it's one they probably won't do well in.
DPMS's sell for $450 right now, and they'll shoot 2 MOA at 100 yards, go bang 99.9% of the time, and mount a red dot or scope in seconds. At best, your new $1000 Sig or whatever will just do the exact same thing using a piston. Sure, it may be more "combat reliable" than a DPMS, but Joe Plinker thumbing through the Sportsman's Warehouse catalog doesn't care. He just wants a cheap gun.
DPMS's sell for $450 right now, and they'll shoot 2 MOA at 100 yards, go bang 99.9% of the time, and mount a red dot or scope in seconds. At best, your new $1000 Sig or whatever will just do the exact same thing using a piston. Sure, it may be more "combat reliable" than a DPMS, but Joe Plinker thumbing through the Sportsman's Warehouse catalog doesn't care. He just wants a cheap gun.
Last edited:
The AR15 is public domain. There's no development cost. You don't even have to make the parts yourself. A company can order branded receivers, assemble the guns, and kick them out the door.
And all those parts are made stateside, making 922r irrelevant.
For a Sig Commando, they can't just ship some over. It has to be manufactured in a sporting configuration, imported, and reassembled/rebuilt with so many American parts. Parts that Sig would have to tool up for and manufacture. That massively adds to the cost of manufacture, which makes it financially risky if the guns don't sell. And they might not, since it increases the price so much.
And all those parts are made stateside, making 922r irrelevant.
For a Sig Commando, they can't just ship some over. It has to be manufactured in a sporting configuration, imported, and reassembled/rebuilt with so many American parts. Parts that Sig would have to tool up for and manufacture. That massively adds to the cost of manufacture, which makes it financially risky if the guns don't sell. And they might not, since it increases the price so much.
- Status
