I'm looking through SGN and on the internet contemplating buying an Upper and lower to assemble. Well I see Pre ban uppers for less than Post ban uppers, plus the fact that there are still so many new ones close to 10 years later. Are they really all made prior to the Ban or since they don't have SN are some snuck in? I assume that they are all legal, but just how many were around? You don't see Pre ban Lowers NIB for sale all over the place. Thanks
Why so many pre ban uppers for AR15s?
- Thread starter Ed
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goalie
Member
You see them because as long as you own an AR15 lower that was assembled as an assault rifle before the ban, you can have all of the pre-ban uppers you want for it. Since it is so easy to switch out uppers on an AR, many people have multiple uppers that they swap out on the same lower for different situations.
Sure I understand that, but my question is were there like 200 uppers for every lower that was made in 1993? It is 10 years later and you can still pick and chose options on a Pre ban for less money than a post ban. Can you put a Pre ban configuration post ban upper on a pre ban lower?
goalie
Member
The lower is the rifle. You can put newly (post-ban) manufactured pre-ban configuration uppers on any pre-ban lower receiver that was already assembled as an assault rifle BEFORE the ban.
So to put it another way, there are no more "pre-ban" recievers being made. There are currently uppers being made/sold with flash suppressors and bayonet lugs still on them. You can only buy those "pre-ban" uppers if you own a pre-ban lower receiver to put them on, and the same goes for telescoping "pre-ban" stocks. Now, I am not a lawyer, but, unless I had a pre-ban AR lower that was already built into an assault rifle BEFORE the ban (not a stripped lower), I wouldn't even own a "new" pre-ban upper or a "new" telescoping stock.
So to put it another way, there are no more "pre-ban" recievers being made. There are currently uppers being made/sold with flash suppressors and bayonet lugs still on them. You can only buy those "pre-ban" uppers if you own a pre-ban lower receiver to put them on, and the same goes for telescoping "pre-ban" stocks. Now, I am not a lawyer, but, unless I had a pre-ban AR lower that was already built into an assault rifle BEFORE the ban (not a stripped lower), I wouldn't even own a "new" pre-ban upper or a "new" telescoping stock.
Zak Smith
Member
Misleading? Not really. It's just short-hand for "This upper is only legal [without modification] on a pre-ban rifle." You see, it doesn't matter when the upper was made, just when the lower was assembled into a "semiautomatic assault weapon."
The law doesn't restrict uppers by themselves. Lots of manufacturers sell "pre-ban" uppers -- meaning brand new uppers which have too many "evil" features to put on a post-ban lower.
To have a legal "semiautomatic assault weapon", it merely needs to have been a S.A.W. before the '94 ban. You can reconfigure the upper all you want.
One of the cheapest ways to permanently attach a muzzle brake to an otherwise-only-preban-legal AR15 barrel is to screw it on the standard 1/2x28 threads and then either blind pin & weld it or silver-solder it on, both of which can be done locally by a semi-competent machinist.
-z
DMK
Member
Correct.
Keep in mind that these can also be put on brand new LEO/Govt. only recievers.
NevadaPistolero
Member
You cannot put a pre ban upper on a post ban lower. The trick is finding a pre ban lower...which cost a hell of alot more than a post ban lower. LEOs can buy new post ban rifles that have collasible stocks and bayonet lugs. I guess thats because no LEO has ever been busted for bayoneting anyone like us civilians have. Also you cannot put a pre ban flash hider on a post ban weapon, only muzzle brakes. Alot of the new post ban uppers have muzzle brakes already on them(BushMaster, RRA). Their pressed on and pinned. If you need good reliable info on ARs just go to AR15.com.
goalie
Member
I will say it again to keep anyone from getting into big trouble down the line: you CANNOT just put a pre-ban upper on any pre-ban lower. The lower had to be assembled as an evil assault rifle BEFORE the ban took effect. Now, I am pretty certain that the BATFE can figure out if a lower was sold as a complete, assembled evil assault rifle before the ban, but I am not too sure about how they would know if a lower that was sold as a stripped lower before the ban was actually assembled before the ban. Knowing the government though, I would not be quite certain that you will be presumed innocent until they prove that the lower was not assembled into an assault rifle before the ban.
I am not trying to make Ed paranoid or anything, but let's look at a hypothetical scenario:
Ed buys a pre ban lower and puts a pre-ban upper on it. For some reason Ed's "pre-ban" rifle is noticed by the police during an encounter, either at the home or at the range or wherever suits your imagination. Due to the nature of the encounter, Ed's rifle is taken as evidence. It turns out that the BATFE can prove Ed's alleged pre-ban lower, while manufactured before the ban, did not ship from the manufacturer until after the ban, and it shipped as either a complete lower or a stripped lower, NOT a complete evil assault rifle. Due to the timeline, it is very clear that no purchasing consumer could have assembled a complete evil rifle on the lower before the ban took effect. The fact that Ed put a pre-ban upper on this lower, despite the lower being manufactured before the ban, now makes Ed a criminal regardless of the outcome of the original encounter. Ed is now screwed because he took advice off the internet about pre-ban lowers.
In conclusion, if you buy a "pre-ban" lower make damn sure it was assembled as an assault rifle before the ban. If you cannot be certain that it was a complete, assembled assault rifle before the ban, well, buyer beware, because I am pretty certain that the BATFE doesn't consider "but I didn't know" a valid reason to have assembled an illegal firearm.
Adding to what goalie said, There was a letter floating around from the batfe that said basically that if for stripped lower was sold that was previously a preban, it is no longer a preban as it was sold without being in a preban configuration and you are then manufacturing it into a preban rifle again which is illegal. I know this is contrary to what many people believe and is also improbable. I hope someone has a copy of the letter they can post.
Additionally the way the law is written is that it is a justification if it was made before the date, so the burdan of proof is on you.
Additionally the way the law is written is that it is a justification if it was made before the date, so the burdan of proof is on you.
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NevadaPistolero
Member
very true goalie, I should have said the same thing. It takes a little research to figure out that what your doing will work or not(within the law, outside the law). Its not really worth the hassle. Hopefully in sept. things will change a bit, I dont really see it happening tho. After all the drive by bayonetings and people being killed with collapsible stocks. It is a little strange tho that LEOs can have a bayonet lug on their ARs....what the hell are they gonna start stabbing us bad people. I dont recall of ever hearing about a LEO bayonet charge...humm, oh well.
Looks like all the "legal" has been covered... Now for one last thing you mentioned that I haven't seen answered yet...
Why do pre-ban uppers cost less than post-ban uppers?
Because post-ban uppers are USUALLY pre-ban uppers that were converted. There's a couple bucks labor involved in shaving off the bayonet lug, and a few more tied up into the drilling, pinning, and welding of that blast enhancer.
I personally own one of each... One pre-ban (purchased complete BY ME in 1993) and one post-ban. It just amazes me sometimes that all I would have to do to commit a FELONY is remove the upper from my pre-ban and place it on the post-ban. I HAVEN'T, and I WON'T, but....
And BTW, if you've never done a drive-by using your bayonet equipped rifle, you should try it! It's so much more challenging than using bullets... Sorta like bow hunting compared to a rifle. You have to get a heckuva lot closer to them.
Why do pre-ban uppers cost less than post-ban uppers?
Because post-ban uppers are USUALLY pre-ban uppers that were converted. There's a couple bucks labor involved in shaving off the bayonet lug, and a few more tied up into the drilling, pinning, and welding of that blast enhancer.
I personally own one of each... One pre-ban (purchased complete BY ME in 1993) and one post-ban. It just amazes me sometimes that all I would have to do to commit a FELONY is remove the upper from my pre-ban and place it on the post-ban. I HAVEN'T, and I WON'T, but....
And BTW, if you've never done a drive-by using your bayonet equipped rifle, you should try it! It's so much more challenging than using bullets... Sorta like bow hunting compared to a rifle. You have to get a heckuva lot closer to them.
Feanaro
Member
Weren't assault rifles regulated by a different act, like the NFA act of '34?
El Rojo
Member
If you want to have an excuse for having "pre-ban" uppers lieing about the house, get a FAB-10. Since the FAB-10 does not have a detachable magazine, the AW rules do not apply. Then you can buy all of the pre-ban uppers you want and not have to worry about it. Just don't put them on a real AR lower until the law changes or ban expires.
goalie
Member
I can show you proof that it is a felony. I can also prove that you had prior knowledge of it being a felony just through your posts here in this thread. Now, let me think......... would it really matter how frequently (or infrequently) other people had previously been convicted or charged with that felony activity when YOU currently ARE charged with that same felony?!?!?!?
Maybe my post came out wrong. I don't have a need to violate the laws with the pre-ban post-ban crap. I have plenty of pre-bans as well as class3 weapons. What I was wondering is has the law ever been enforced. People at some gun shows are selling post-ban rifles as pre-bans. You can tell by the serial numbers. Curious minds want to know.
goalie
Member
M16, I have no idea how often, if ever, people have been charged or convicted of assembling an illegal rifle in the configuration(s) mentioned above. I do know that it is very easy for someone to screw up due to the sheer number of vague laws on the books, and I want to ensure that I do not contribute to someone losing their rights because of bad internet advice.
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