Why some African countries have a limit of .375 cal even for lions???

[saturno_v]

Lions are relatively thin skinned animals with a weigh of 550 lb (250 kg) at most...

In the very early 20 century an English hunter named George Gray was killed by a lion charge when his two shots out of a 280 Ross rifle with 140 gr bullets failed to penetrate the vitals...the 280 Ross was an ultra fast round at that time (over 3000 fps) but bullet technology was still in its infancy...the .280 Ross fast soft point bullets often fragmented when encountered stiff resistance...from that point in time the belief (and somewhat school of thought) about the need of a large caliber to kill Lions was born..

Couple of decades later, and with bullet construction reaching maturity, the fantastic 270 Winchester demonstrated that could go through Simba from stern to butt handily....

The more anemic 303 British was used very effectively on lions..

So why many countries still require a minimum of .375 for hunting the big cats when even the "little" 270 Winchester had an excellent track records for decades in Africa???

I talked to a couple of experienced old safari hunters and they told me that this limit doesn't make much sense.....someone think that the requirements is to make sure hunters use the properly constructed bullets (a .375 H&H uses premium bullets by default)...to avoid someone showing with cheap soft points suitable just for deer...is that makes sense???

An old South African guy told me that even the good ol' 30-30 has been used on lions with excellent results...

I think that doesn't matter if you use a 460 or a 30-06..if you miss the vitals you are going to be in serious trouble regardless...a 460 will generate a larger wound channel but probably still unable to stop a charge..

And a .270 or an 06 with proper bullets has enough energy to break large bones

As I said before, these old guys told me that a 270 will easily go through a lion from end to end...

Comments and opinions??

 

[The Tourist]

I don't think it's the cartridge that got this thing started. I think it was the components.

For many years, Africa had many uprisings by native peoples. Some of them obtained military rifles. Like any government, they couldn't control the weapons, so they tried to control the ammo.

Many brass cases can be made into other calibers. What they are trying to do is limit people getting access to military tools.

For example, in Mexico while it was difficult (illegal?) to get 9x19mm ammo, you could easily get .38 Auto and .38 Super brass. Go figure.

 

[PercyShelley]

I am told by someone who has been on safari that lions are deceptively tough for their weight, and given that they are enormously able to turn puny, slow hominids into hamburger when given motivation, it is prudent to have some safety margin with regards to the tools one uses to deal with them.

 

[RevolverMan567]

I would IMagine that the restriction is in place because of hunters. Not everyone is as passionate as some of us and not everyone shoots for pleaseure and practice. I would imagine the 375 is there for peple who want to hunt lion and have a large purse, but not very good at shooting. I would think that even a marginal shot from something ike a 375 H&H would rival a well placed round from a 30-30 or 270. m sure for a sasoned professional african hunter 30-30 is proper medicine, but for those of us who are excitd about hunting big dangerous game in africa for the first time, and having the price of a trophy lion tag+the cost of travel! in the back of our mind, im sure its there for our own good. The lion may not need a 375H&H but WE may!

 

[Mk VII]

.303 was an illegal calibre in many British colonies (still is in some places though the rationale behind it is out of date)

 

[22-rimfire]

How about the 480 Ruger for Lion?

 

[Vaarok]

The risk of waking up a Water Buffalo while hunting saidsame lion.

They don't call it "Horned Death" for nothin'.

 

[R.W.Dale]

So why many countries still require a minimum of .375 for hunting the big cats when even the "little" 270 Winchester had an excellent track records for decades in Africa???

This particular cat was a man eater being hunted by a professonal hunter

http://youtube.com/watch?v=r67c9i6psSo

A lion isn't like anything found on this continent. If you wound it even mortally IT WILL make a point of taking you to hell with him.

standard rifle cartridges simply DO NOT have the mass or energy to break bones, rend and tear flesh apart to prevent you from getting partially eaten by a big cat bent on your demise.

 

[Slamfire]

So why many countries still require a minimum of .375 for hunting the big cats when even the "little" 270 Winchester had an excellent track records for decades in Africa???

I you read the book "Man Eaters of Kumaon", by Jim Corbett, most of the man eating Tigers he hunted had been wounded by Natives with old black powder rifles. After healing, these wounded animals could no longer hunt their normal game, so they found something far easier to hunt: Humans.

Some of these Tigers had killed up to 300 people before Mr. Corbett ended their lives.

Maybe that is something that the local hunting Administrators want to avoid, that is having some small bore Ideologue wound a bunch of lions. The locals would have to find and contend with those angry, now man potentially killing beasties long after the Ideologue is safe and sound and telling all his friends that the 22-250, 243 and 270 are great lion hunting rounds.

You would not have to legislate common sense if the population were not so lacking in it.

Safety belts are a good example.

 

[saturno_v]

I would think that even a marginal shot from something ike a 375 H&H would rival a well placed round from a 30-30 or 270.

I disagree on a bad shot with a .375 rivaling a well placed 270 shot..sorry...if you hit a lion in the guts with a.375 is going to be pissed at you that for sure...

Of course a minumum should be established caliber wise.....thse old guys told me that a 270 can be considered an entry level lion rifle in their view...

 

[bogie]

Big teeth? Check.

Big claws? Check.

Bad attitude? Check.

Wants to eat me? Check.

Gimme the biggest gun I can carry.

It costs too much to "clean up" after a lion kills a hunter. All the paperwork, etc., etc...

 

[saturno_v]

standard rifle cartridges simply DO NOT have the mass or energy to break bones, rend and tear flesh apart to prevent you from getting partially eaten by a big cat bent on your demise.

Too bad lots of Lions skewered from brisket to butt with 270s in the past decades didn't know that....
Would be interesting to ask Jack O'Connor his opinion if he were still alive....

 

[Art Eatman]

If the 400-pound poo-tat doesn't know you're around, odds are that a .270 or '06 would work just fine. Stick a bullet in his ear or make a good heart shot and there you are: Rug.

The problem is that the rules are based on "in case of in case" as in a hostile poo-tat heading your way at a high rate of speed. A lion can cover 100 yards in about three to four seconds. You can't.

 

[koja48]

Attaboy, Bogie . . . that pretty much puts it in perspective (as Dirty Harry said, "A man needs all the edge he can get" & if a critter has plans for stringy old me on the menu, I'll be wanting something in a caliber described with BIG numbers!).

three to four seconds. You can't.

Correct, but that lion would be slipping something awful in the last few yards before it caught me & it wouldn't smell none too good, either . . .

 

[saturno_v]

This particular cat was a man eater being hunted by a professonal hunter

http://youtube.com/watch?v=r67c9i6psSo

I saw that video several times...if you pay close attention the shooters missed the target so many times even at very short distance...they were shooting all over the place....you can see the plumes where the bullets hit the ground...talking about shot placement....

These "sunday hunters" clearly don't know how to shoot their rifles proficiently..the kind of hunters despised by the old experienced safari folks....

A missed .460 bullet is not going to help you a lot....

 

[H&Hhunter]

This particular cat was a man eater being hunted by a professonal hunter

I love how these stories grow on the internet. That cat was hunted on a game farm in the free state of South Africa. It is not a man eater...

The risk of waking up a Water Buffalo while hunting saidsame lion.

They don't call it "Horned Death" for nothin'.

Now that would be something. About the only place you can encounter water buffalo and lions in the same place is in India. There are no water buffalo in sub Sahara Africa where we hunt lions.

I am guessing that you are thinking of a cape buffalo? That is an entirely different critter than a water buffalo.

Ask any ten PH's and that spend any time hunting lions and they'll all tell you that a wounded lion is the most terrifying animal on the planet to follow up. When hunting any dangerous game you want the biggest rifle that you can shoot accurately.

There is a HUGE difference on game reaction when striking with an animal with a .375H&H class rifle vs a .270 or a .30-06. And of course a well placed .270 is better than a .375 in the guts. But here is the crux of that statement. Don't shoot a lion in the guts. A well placed heavy caliber has a heck of a lot more smack than a well placed light caliber.

If you can't handle a .375 class rifle or larger don't hunt African dangerous game.

 

[Slamfire]

You guys are missing the point. Saturno_v has asked the same question, at least one before, http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=327663 and has not received the answer he wants.

He wants to hear that the 270, 7mm, 30-30's are perfectly good on Lions and Tigers and Bears.

After all, ancient history says it must be so.

And until he hears what he wants to hear, he will continue to ask variations on the same theme.

 

[saturno_v]

SlamFire1

You are the one missing the point

The reason I opened a new thread on the topic is because I was talking with recently with some hunters that were discussing the same thing....they confirmed what I suspected, that the 270 has been used for decades (have you ever heard of Jack O'Connors???) so I brought it up again on THR....I do not "want" to hear anything, I do not plan any African safari (actually I do not hunt at all) just trying to get more technical explanation, which, evidently, I'm not going to get... SOME peole says you need minimum a 375, a lion is so dangerous, bla bla bla but they do not explain exactly, technically, why...if you miss with a 416 or with a 270 the results will be the same..you ass is going to get kicked as this wiveo demonstrate:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=r67c9i6psSo

That video doesn't show that you need a big bore...rahter it shows that you need to knwo how to use your rifle...

This is a very common ground for discussion even among experienced hunters, high velocity small caliber vs. big and slow...

How many topics are discussed on THR over and over (.40 vs .45, SHTF gun, AR vs Ak, etc...) and from different angles?? Plenty.... I suggest you to go and use the search function

By the way..my first rifle bought in America is a sporterized Mauser 98 action in 30-06 owned by an old retired South African cardiologist emigrated in the US

He took few lions with it...

 

[Art Eatman]

saturno v, you've certainly had explanations in this thread that are far beyond merely adequate.

Lemme try a different angle, since we all know that cartridges of the pipsqueak variety have killed large animals.

I've never had a major car wreck, a housefire, or a lawsuit because of an event on my property--but I carry insurance.

I've never been subject to an assault or mugging or carjacking--but I carry a different form of insurance that's still "insurance".

All that insurance is a form of protection against "Oops!"

Same for the .375 minimum. Insurance.

And to beat some more on this dead horse: The issue is not really about the ability to kill. It's about your ability to stop a lion before he kills you.

 

[H&Hhunter]

Saturno,

I couldn't have been any more clear in my explanation.

When hunting dangerous game a heavy rifle provides a more instantaneous kill it also provides for less of a chance for bullet failure and provides a less variable bullet path as heavy slower moving projectiles tend to give better and deeper straight line penetration.

A heavier larger diameter bullet will also give a larger wound channel and will provide better bone crushing capability.

Once again the plain and simple answer to your question is that .375H&H class rifles and up simply hit harder and have knock down capability beyond that of a .30 cal rifle.

If you will watch that lion hunting video again you'll notice that during the charge the lion is actually being hit in the neck and chest area several times. Right as he jumps he takes a round in the face which is what causes him to miss grabbing the hunter. This is where a large caliber rifle would have come in real handy. It doesn't look to me that any of the guy shooting are using anything very big.

 

[rbernie]

Once again the plain and simple answer to your question is that .375H&H class rifles and up simply hit harder and have knock down capability beyond that of a .30 cal rifle.

Sometimes, you have to shoot at something that can HURT you *and* have it get back up after the shot to fully appreciate that statement. Once that happens, you will never again question the statement "Bring Enough Gun".

Small bullets *may* expand, but big stout bullets NEVER contract.

 

[Slamfire]

SOME peole says you need minimum a 375, a lion is so dangerous, bla bla bla but they do not explain exactly, technically.

Only the military spends money on Lethality assessments. Generally they go something like this: Probability of Kill (PK) is the sum of probability of correct identification, probability of hit, probability of hitting something vital, probability of hit being incapacitating, probability of ….

There are a number of factors, all of which are specific to the target and the amount of destruction desired.

The number that comes out, after some very expensive analysis, is really a SWAG. But because a lot of money has been spent, and a lot of mathematical models have been generated, everyone feels good, and the decision makers can point to that number and claim they have a firm basis for their decision.

When in fact, whatever decision they make was based on their own personnel perferences. (The smart analyst learns what those are, and gives them the number they want to hear)

So, you want an detailed exhaustive rationale of why the 375 H&H is considered a minimum caliber on lions?

That's not going to happen.

You want to know why it is in place?

Because someone in a position of authority decided that was the magic number. To find out why that number, and not some other number, you are going to have to find the decision maker and ask him.

It may turn out, the guy likes the 375 H&H. Or his buddy thought that was the smallest caliber, instead of your buddies, who think a 270 is adequate.

But non decision makers don't make the rules. So you either live with the rules, or you don't play.

 

[XDKingslayer]

You guys are missing the point. Saturno_v has asked the same question, at least one before, http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=327663 and has not received the answer he wants.

He wants to hear that the 270, 7mm, 30-30's are perfectly good on Lions and Tigers and Bears.

After all, ancient history says it must be so.

And until he hears what he wants to hear, he will continue to ask variations on the same theme.

As Cousin Eddie said.....BINGO!

 

[Cosmoline]

Most guides in AK want out of state brown bear hunters to bring a .375 H&H as a minimum as well. It's a safety margin issue and reduces the chances of losing a merely wounded animal. Back when there were a lot more bear here hunters routinely used .30-30's or even .32-20's to kill the largest Kodiaks. Heck the .30-30 was considered great bear medicine, just as it was lion medicine for the Afrikaners.

But when push comes to shove, and you HAVE the option (unlike a dirt-poor farmer 100 years ago), wisdom would suggest going larger. I've sat there in front of the strong box many times with the levergun carbine in one hand and the big heavy thumper in the other, and 9 times out of 10 I accept the back pain and take the big one. Five inch claws have a chilling effect even if they never touch you.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Believe it or not, a couple of years ago we had a pride of lions running wild here in Arkansas, near Quitman. The theory is there is a big cat sanctuary there, someone brought the lions to leave off there -- but the sanctuary was full. So they just turned them loose in the woods.

The lions were killed by sheriff's deputies with .308s.