AtticusThraxx
Member
Not me MC. 300 lb tiger calls for Field Artillery in my book. Multiple batteries.
270 Winchester too light for lions???
- Thread starter saturno_v
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The Lone Haranguer
Member
I am King of the Wild Front Lawn
and no hunter, but here are my two cents.
A male lion and a bull elk are roughly the same weight, and .270 is supposed to be "adequate" for elk. The problem is that, while an elk will run away after being shot, a lion will take it personally, as it were, and come after you. And they are pretty well armed themselves. So I think I would want a caliber with a little more power to more positively anchor them where they stand.
and no hunter, but here are my two cents.A male lion and a bull elk are roughly the same weight, and .270 is supposed to be "adequate" for elk. The problem is that, while an elk will run away after being shot, a lion will take it personally, as it were, and come after you. And they are pretty well armed themselves. So I think I would want a caliber with a little more power to more positively anchor them where they stand.
Yes I never killed an animal and I probably never will...gun lover but no hunter...just interested in the technological and ballistic aspect of rifles (and I own several of them).
I'm asking to the expert at this point...some of them have been in Africa....
In a charging situation with a Lion you make maybe few seconds and few shots to react and, ....if your 375 bullet is not well placed you are going to have trouble regardless right??
Let's say you do get the perfect shot...and we are talking very short distance in a charge...what difference make a perfect shot with a 270 bullet and a perfect shot with a 375 bullet??? (we are assuming top quality bullet that do not explode on impact)
The 270 bullet is going to be stopped by a bone or a muscle where the 375 pass through???
Yes I heard you have to physically "destroy" an enraged lion to stop a charge and indeed lions that got shot on the head but the bullet did not reach the brain kept charging.....
I'm trying to understand what difference in margin of error a 375 or 416 or whatever is going to give you over a 270,,,if you miss a vital spot with both you are going to have trouble......if you shoot a bad angle with both and they get deflected you are in trouble....
So what you are trying to say is that at 50 yards a 270 well placed shot would not penetrate a lion sufficiently right???
And mostly, why certain caliber were considerate more than adequate for certain game (30-06 and 270 were considerate more than adequate for lions in the 30's) and now is not the case??? Better margin of error??? Heck if you shoot a lion with a 50 BMG, you can comfortably shoot from half mile....
About being s.....less scared in front of an enraged african lion well..I will be more than that and feel undergunned even with a RPG probalby ......I'm trying to understand technical aspect, not psycological ones...
I'm asking to the expert at this point...some of them have been in Africa....
In a charging situation with a Lion you make maybe few seconds and few shots to react and, ....if your 375 bullet is not well placed you are going to have trouble regardless right??
Let's say you do get the perfect shot...and we are talking very short distance in a charge...what difference make a perfect shot with a 270 bullet and a perfect shot with a 375 bullet??? (we are assuming top quality bullet that do not explode on impact)
The 270 bullet is going to be stopped by a bone or a muscle where the 375 pass through???
Yes I heard you have to physically "destroy" an enraged lion to stop a charge and indeed lions that got shot on the head but the bullet did not reach the brain kept charging.....
I'm trying to understand what difference in margin of error a 375 or 416 or whatever is going to give you over a 270,,,if you miss a vital spot with both you are going to have trouble......if you shoot a bad angle with both and they get deflected you are in trouble....
So what you are trying to say is that at 50 yards a 270 well placed shot would not penetrate a lion sufficiently right???
And mostly, why certain caliber were considerate more than adequate for certain game (30-06 and 270 were considerate more than adequate for lions in the 30's) and now is not the case??? Better margin of error??? Heck if you shoot a lion with a 50 BMG, you can comfortably shoot from half mile....
About being s.....less scared in front of an enraged african lion well..I will be more than that and feel undergunned even with a RPG probalby ......I'm trying to understand technical aspect, not psycological ones...
R.W.Dale
Member
It's not so much penetration, You can buy 270 loads that will penetrate. The little 270 however won't crush tissue, break bones rend flesh and separate joints while traversing the length of a lion like a REAL dangerous game rifle will.
Just cause a Camaro has a small back set doesn't make it a real sports car, and just cause a 270 can penetrate doesn't make it a DG cartridge
Saturn V,
many lions have been taken with the .303 so a .270 would also work. But is it smart?
There are many many many stories of hunters using everything from 30-30 to 300 winmag hitting a deer in the chest, and having the deer dart off 100 yards before expriring. This is especially true of a deer that is already running.
Now, recall that lion hunting isn't sitting in a blind waiting for a lion to come by, lion hunting is walking through the brush pushing the lion to a cornered spot. You probably don't even see the lion, just his tracks, until BOOM he explodes from some invisible hiding space at 40 paces and is coming right at your throat. That's when you need the 375
Out hunting antelope with your 270, you see a lion so you scramble up a tree, now he is right below you stalking around waiting for you to come down? Yea, the 270 will be able to kill him.
But a charging lion, will the 270 be able to kill him before he is able to kill you?
And yes, even a 22LR through the eye into the right spot of a lion's brain will kill it instantly. No animal has bullet proof eyeballs. But how well can you make such a shot?
many lions have been taken with the .303 so a .270 would also work. But is it smart?
There are many many many stories of hunters using everything from 30-30 to 300 winmag hitting a deer in the chest, and having the deer dart off 100 yards before expriring. This is especially true of a deer that is already running.
Now, recall that lion hunting isn't sitting in a blind waiting for a lion to come by, lion hunting is walking through the brush pushing the lion to a cornered spot. You probably don't even see the lion, just his tracks, until BOOM he explodes from some invisible hiding space at 40 paces and is coming right at your throat. That's when you need the 375
Out hunting antelope with your 270, you see a lion so you scramble up a tree, now he is right below you stalking around waiting for you to come down? Yea, the 270 will be able to kill him.
But a charging lion, will the 270 be able to kill him before he is able to kill you?
And yes, even a 22LR through the eye into the right spot of a lion's brain will kill it instantly. No animal has bullet proof eyeballs. But how well can you make such a shot?
Saturno,
You are missing the big boat here. A dangerous game cartridge is going to do much more damage than a 270, no matter where it hits. If you hit him in the leg, that DG round is going to smash his leg harder. If you hit him from the front, it is going to go farther and tear much more meat and bone along the entire path. I mean, is it really that hard for you to figure out? You are trying to stop an animal NOW.
No one here is arguing that a 270 won't kill a lion. No one here is arguing that a pellet rifle won't kill a bison. What we are arguing is that it is stupid to take such an underpowered rifle to dangerous game land as your protection, and place bets on your life because of some ballistic experiment you want to try and accomplish successfully. If those are the values of your life, than so be it. Take that 270 and don't look back. Hopefully the guide has different values, or you don't actually see a lion while there that is giving you the evil eye. I think at that point you will need diapers and a bigger gun. Since you won't have the bigger gun, you better remember to at least bring the diapers along with you.
You are missing the big boat here. A dangerous game cartridge is going to do much more damage than a 270, no matter where it hits. If you hit him in the leg, that DG round is going to smash his leg harder. If you hit him from the front, it is going to go farther and tear much more meat and bone along the entire path. I mean, is it really that hard for you to figure out? You are trying to stop an animal NOW.
No one here is arguing that a 270 won't kill a lion. No one here is arguing that a pellet rifle won't kill a bison. What we are arguing is that it is stupid to take such an underpowered rifle to dangerous game land as your protection, and place bets on your life because of some ballistic experiment you want to try and accomplish successfully. If those are the values of your life, than so be it. Take that 270 and don't look back. Hopefully the guide has different values, or you don't actually see a lion while there that is giving you the evil eye. I think at that point you will need diapers and a bigger gun. Since you won't have the bigger gun, you better remember to at least bring the diapers along with you.
aspade
Member
Exactly right. Bullet penetration doesn't make the stop, the bullet destroying vital parts inside the target makes the stop. A deep penetrating bullet is just a means to that end on shots where the vitals are protected by 2 or 3 feet of something not immediately lethal.
I think you misinderstood me Matt
I'm not assuming or arguing that the 270 is adequate actually i'm asking the reason why is not, once i never hunted animals in my life....
I was trying to understand how much more effective a big round is compared to a smaller round with the same penetration that's all...
A flat head bullet with the same caliber destroys more right??? (and it penetrates less in return I assume)
I'm not assuming or arguing that the 270 is adequate actually i'm asking the reason why is not, once i never hunted animals in my life....
I was trying to understand how much more effective a big round is compared to a smaller round with the same penetration that's all...
A flat head bullet with the same caliber destroys more right??? (and it penetrates less in return I assume)
R.W.Dale
Member
YES and NO
Yes on the destruction part and no on the penatration. A good sharp edged FP will usually penetrate more and straighter than a spitzer.
I don't know why this is other than possibly the sharp edges around the bullets meplat tend to have a cutting effect.
You can't quantify the margin of error difference because there are simply too many variables. My suggestion is that if you want to see terminal performance on game, go hunting. But do it for the right reasons, not to just see what your rifles can do.
This thread reminds of the millions of theoretical fight scenarios on martial arts forums by people who have never been in a scrap.
This thread reminds of the millions of theoretical fight scenarios on martial arts forums by people who have never been in a scrap.
Wes Janson
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I for one want either an M82 CQB, a SAW, or perhaps a 7.62 Minimi. And that's as a BUG for the Ma Deuce. Not to mention an extra change of pants.
This is not entirely correct..
The reason of my post is that I heard this argument over and over in Gun Shops and Gun Shows and usually, on average, the older hunters tend to consider appropriate chambering that younger folks consider inappropriate...
It is not theoretical.....the gun shop's owner (a guy in his 60's) where I buy some of my guns and equipment, I can even give you the name, Dj Loans & Sports in Bothell, WA, has dropped more than one Grizzly with a 30-30 and one in a charging situation.....he regularly hunt in Africa and South America so he is been there and done that... (6 months ago he went on a hunting trip in Venezuela and other countries and dropped a South American big cat with a 270 Winchester)
He always tell me that it is better having a quick second shot and to shoot with a gun that doesn't make you flinch rather than using a cannon you can barely control.....again it is his opinion and other people think differently
This guy think that a 30-06 with the right load and bullet weight and construction can comfortably drop anything even in a dangerous situation, if you do your job...again his opinion not mine.....
I just wanted to se what my new forum friends think on this topic....
browningguy
Member
Hunting lions with a .270, or even trying to convince people it is ok is just plain stupid.
Sorry if that sounds harsh, but it's meant to be.
Sorry if that sounds harsh, but it's meant to be.
No one ever said that you can't drop game with a cartridge that is generally considered to be inadequate. If you believe the gun rags, you need a .300 WSM to bag a whitetail. Which of course is bogus. The point everyone is trying to make is that the terminal performance of a smaller round can come into play in a dangerous game situation. Anecdotal stories are also of limited value...one time I used the butt of a Ka-Bar to pound a nail, does that make it a great hammer?
That is true since placement is the name of the game, but for many people, .375 H&H is controllable.
As I stated earlier, an arrow will drop anything. But when you have a 2,000 cape buffalo charging you at 15', would you want your PH to be armed with an '06? Once again, not to be offensive, my suggestion is to get some experience of your own instead of hanging in the gun shop. You'll be amazed at how awesome it can be to spend a day out hunting.
Shawnee
member
I wasn't going to get into this Flight of Fancy but maybe I can do a wee bit of good.
Yes - a hunter should always use a weapon/caliber they can use effectively, especially for dangerous game.
Yes - there are people who take a big gun like a 458 Winchester into dangerous situations even though they really don't have the skill to use it effectively. That's one reason the PH and trackers sometimes have to be ready to act as "back-ups". Owning a .458 and being able to use it effectively are two very different things. Heresy though it may be - there are also plenty of people who use a 30/06 for deer when they would truly do better shooting with a caliber that barks and bites less.
But being able to use a given weapon/caliber is not all there is to the equation. With dangerous game, the bullet must do sufficient damage sufficiently quickly to prevent the hunter from getting replatted.
Yes, the .270 can dispatch a lion. It might, in fact, be able to penetrate the lion from front to back. However...
1. I'm almost certain it is illegal to tackle a lion with a .270, and...
2. A .375 H&H Magnum will also penetrate a lion from stem to stern and - this is the important part - the .375 will do more damage to the lion than the .270 and "more damage to the lion" is equal to a much better chance of "less damage to the hunter". That's a really good thing and the reason behind the ban on light calibers for lions.
No, there are no numbers that exhibit how much.
Moral of the Story: On dangerous game the hunter is well advised to use the most powerful rifles/calibers they can handle effectively.
Yes - a hunter should always use a weapon/caliber they can use effectively, especially for dangerous game.
Yes - there are people who take a big gun like a 458 Winchester into dangerous situations even though they really don't have the skill to use it effectively. That's one reason the PH and trackers sometimes have to be ready to act as "back-ups". Owning a .458 and being able to use it effectively are two very different things. Heresy though it may be - there are also plenty of people who use a 30/06 for deer when they would truly do better shooting with a caliber that barks and bites less.
But being able to use a given weapon/caliber is not all there is to the equation. With dangerous game, the bullet must do sufficient damage sufficiently quickly to prevent the hunter from getting replatted.
Yes, the .270 can dispatch a lion. It might, in fact, be able to penetrate the lion from front to back. However...
1. I'm almost certain it is illegal to tackle a lion with a .270, and...
2. A .375 H&H Magnum will also penetrate a lion from stem to stern and - this is the important part - the .375 will do more damage to the lion than the .270 and "more damage to the lion" is equal to a much better chance of "less damage to the hunter". That's a really good thing and the reason behind the ban on light calibers for lions.
No, there are no numbers that exhibit how much.
Moral of the Story: On dangerous game the hunter is well advised to use the most powerful rifles/calibers they can handle effectively.
karnaaj
Member
And you would be the biggest fool on the planet to be caught in a situation like that with a .223. Besides why should I "trust you?" I smell a troll.
351 WINCHESTER
Member
Under ideal circumstances the .270 would probably be ok. If the lion is charging or you need to make an instantaniously kill I would be much more comfortable with something heavier, like a .375 with expanding bullets.
chemist308
Member
The difference is in the wound cavity, the degree to which bones shatter and generally the 'stopping power' of the round. With the distance being short, you're not going to get multiple rounds off--do or die, the first round's gotta do the job even if it is a little off. Your primary goal is to come home in one piece. The 'elephant gun' gives you a larger margin for error than the 'deer rifle,' so in the interest of coming home alive that's what you'll pick.
oregonhunter
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lions like other cats have a strong will to live, they will fight till their dead. Shooting one with a 270 would just be stupid. In africa you don't go undergunned, its not bad ass its stupid. My grandfather took his 500lb lion while on an elephant hunt. the lion charged thru the tall grass and was killed with a shot from his .470NE double. this happened inside 5 yards mind you. He said that he was glad he was carrying his big' un. He speaks of this event in his book that should be coming out in about a year or so. It should answer your questions about big rifles in africa.
I am so surprised by the amount of responses for essentially a ridiculous question. Shows just how eager people are to express an opinion on anything. And there are those who got into virtual name calling too.
Maybe this is the sort of response that can be expected when the only time people see lions, tigers and bears, is in Tarzan movies and zoos.
Maybe the next thread ought to be “Is a 45 ACP too light to stop a Battletank”?
Maybe this is the sort of response that can be expected when the only time people see lions, tigers and bears, is in Tarzan movies and zoos.
Maybe the next thread ought to be “Is a 45 ACP too light to stop a Battletank”?
jonboynumba1
Member
Even Jack O'Connor...the biggest and earliest proponent of the .270 known to man (basically of the mind it could do anything with the right bullet) in his later years and African hunts came around to liking a good .375 H&H for some things (bigger game) and in grassy areas where his little .270 was yawing more than the .375 pills....brush will deflect ALL bullets but yes...in some instances heavy bullets do stay closer to on track longer...though people will argue it all day and night..sometimes they do the same things...every shot is different...for over a hundred years people have notes the above though...it's silly to think there is "no" basis for it in fact...though it is not a universal law either. He owned and shot many other big bores but the only one I seem to see him really warming to in writing was a particular .375 (I don't recall if it was a custom job or winchester custom shop deal..like Elmer Keith "the biggest big bore pronenent" of all time the time and his arch nemisis) Both loved "free guns"...even stuff they wouldn't normally say a kind word about Jack had several big bores...Elmer had several small bores...he usually considered them varmint and maybe white-tail affairs. While most plains game can be had with a .270 (and plenty have been) when you go to big or dangerous game .375 H&H is generally considered the minamum...many insist it must be 41-45 cal...some add to that huge magnum chamberings in that range! Few people shoot them really well and they aint cheap! .375 seems to be a favorite as it has more of a push than a kick to the shoulder while still available in the types of weight ranges and bullets most preffer for that type of shooting without getting crazy about it. It can reach out a little better than most big bores with lighter bullets as well if it needs to be more versatile.
I'd bet a 7 mag or .300 win mag could certainly do it all if pushed...certainly a .338 win mag should be versatile enough. But when things "hunt back" general consensus and most countries laws require a .375 or in some cases .40 or larger bore. Ballistics is fun on the internet...but when you are paying 10-15K+ for a hunting trip and there are critters around that you might not be hunting that might decide "hey...I don't like you" (rino hippo bull elephants as well as dangerous game) well it is probably wise to listen to the council of those that have gone before and came back. and take a heavy rifle along with your light or medium caliber (many people prefer 3 rifles/calibers)
I love the .270 myself...my favorite deer round. I also shoot a 7 mag a lot...same thing a little more versatile in bullet weights ect. If I was going over I might take either for lighter plains game. There would deffinately be a .375 H&H in there (Always wanted an excuse to buy one of my own) and possibly a .338 win mag which could "nearly" do it all in my estimation. I've grown attached to my 7 mag as it's light and handy for a magnum and a joy to shoot...I'd feel better with nosler partitions Barnes X in a heavier 162-175gr. range for medium work with H1000 Powder Likely. For accurate smackdown at ranges I like 154gr and H4831SC Though H1000 has proven good as well. My chamber (Ruger M77mkII) seems cut perfectly for heavier bullets and anything lighter than 154gr. needs to be seated too far out to not anoy me and accuracy suffers. To me I preffer the .270 for straight deer rifles...but I think the 7 mag actually offers all the versatillity most people (O'Connor springs to mind) attribute to the .270...assuming the chamber is cut right. Otherwise you may as well just have a .270. It's a grossly in-efficent powder hogging round that I don't really know is justified....but I seem to like it anyway! (It was a gift/bonus...I'd probably have never tried it on my own) The longer heavier bullets with slower powders are really more of a long range benefit than any actual "power or game stopping" upside to me. Long skinny boat-tails retain more downrange thump with less wind drift. I don't know it'll ever do anything I couldn't do with a .270 "for me" but I like having something different to play with. You can only kill so many deer with a 130gr Sierra gameking before the novelty of watching them fall over dead in their tracks wears off afterall!
But I aint huntin' no lions wiff it!!
PS -(above poster)- OF COURSE a .45 acp will stop a battletank! It also slays dragons and makes evil nijas convert to pacificsm on the spot! Why I once sank a battleship and shot down 3 migs and a scud missle with just my trusty .45! This is the internet...I say it so it MUST be so!
I'd bet a 7 mag or .300 win mag could certainly do it all if pushed...certainly a .338 win mag should be versatile enough. But when things "hunt back" general consensus and most countries laws require a .375 or in some cases .40 or larger bore. Ballistics is fun on the internet...but when you are paying 10-15K+ for a hunting trip and there are critters around that you might not be hunting that might decide "hey...I don't like you" (rino hippo bull elephants as well as dangerous game) well it is probably wise to listen to the council of those that have gone before and came back. and take a heavy rifle along with your light or medium caliber (many people prefer 3 rifles/calibers)
I love the .270 myself...my favorite deer round. I also shoot a 7 mag a lot...same thing a little more versatile in bullet weights ect. If I was going over I might take either for lighter plains game. There would deffinately be a .375 H&H in there (Always wanted an excuse to buy one of my own) and possibly a .338 win mag which could "nearly" do it all in my estimation. I've grown attached to my 7 mag as it's light and handy for a magnum and a joy to shoot...I'd feel better with nosler partitions Barnes X in a heavier 162-175gr. range for medium work with H1000 Powder Likely. For accurate smackdown at ranges I like 154gr and H4831SC Though H1000 has proven good as well. My chamber (Ruger M77mkII) seems cut perfectly for heavier bullets and anything lighter than 154gr. needs to be seated too far out to not anoy me and accuracy suffers. To me I preffer the .270 for straight deer rifles...but I think the 7 mag actually offers all the versatillity most people (O'Connor springs to mind) attribute to the .270...assuming the chamber is cut right. Otherwise you may as well just have a .270. It's a grossly in-efficent powder hogging round that I don't really know is justified....but I seem to like it anyway! (It was a gift/bonus...I'd probably have never tried it on my own) The longer heavier bullets with slower powders are really more of a long range benefit than any actual "power or game stopping" upside to me. Long skinny boat-tails retain more downrange thump with less wind drift. I don't know it'll ever do anything I couldn't do with a .270 "for me" but I like having something different to play with. You can only kill so many deer with a 130gr Sierra gameking before the novelty of watching them fall over dead in their tracks wears off afterall!
But I aint huntin' no lions wiff it!!
PS -(above poster)- OF COURSE a .45 acp will stop a battletank! It also slays dragons and makes evil nijas convert to pacificsm on the spot! Why I once sank a battleship and shot down 3 migs and a scud missle with just my trusty .45! This is the internet...I say it so it MUST be so!
jonboynumba1
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