Why some African countries have a limit of .375 cal even for lions???

[saturno_v]

It may turn out, the guy likes the 375 H&H. Or his buddy thought that was the smallest caliber, instead of your buddies, who think a 270 is adequate.

This is not a matter of "my buddies"......Jack O'Connor, RIP, wasn't my friend
Like it or not, it is rather an entire school of thought that, for good or bad reason, it does exists...they think some uber caliber are not necessary..this group of people include folks that did their fair share of safari hunting way before the "Sunday Safari Hunters, 30.000 dollars a pop" craze raged on...

This people think that power is not a substitute for proficiency and shot placement..they think flinching and harsh recoil can seriously trump any advantages a large bore have...

However these "30 cal is sufficient for lions" folks, think large bores are fully warranted for thick skinned large animals such as Cape Buffalo, Rhino or Elephant...yes thousands of Elephant have fallen to the 7 X 57 Mauser in the hands of Walter "Karamojo" Bell and others as Roy Weatherby performed remarkable African hunting with his 257 Weatherby Magnum and more than one proboscis capitulated to a 30-06.. but that is beside the point...the above mentioned people, "regular" safari hunters think a very big wallop is necessary when trying to take a large pachiderm down.....simply enough, they do not think such raw power is necessary for the big cats....agree or not, talk to them

Again I have no special interest nor experience in this as I'm not planning any safari and, actually, I would like to buy an "elephant" gun to add to my gun collection...but I'm fascinated to see how people have such different wiew on the same topic.....my personal "fascination" for this is that I bought my first 30-06 rifle from a Lion hunter....

It is not an official statistic, of course, but seems to me that the proponents of the big artillery pieces are the younger folks where the "30 Cal is enough" tend to be guys that have been around the "African block" longer and many of them were born and raised there.

On a similar note, large Brown bears (and polar bears for that matter) are regular hunted in Siberia with the 7,62 X 54R....this caliber may seem puny and totally inadequate to the typical Alaskan bear hunter...

 

[H&Hhunter]

people think that power is not a substitute for proficiency and shot placement..they think flinching and harsh recoil can seriously trump any advantages a large bore have...

And what makes you think that A competent heavy rifle shooter automatically has a flinch when shooting his heavy rifle?

I can sling a pair of .470 NE into the same hole off hand at 50 yards about 90% of the time. I find the recoil of a .375H&H to be so mild that I hardly even notice that it's gone off.

I've killed hundreds of head of game with a .375H&H and dozens of head with a .470 NE. I am so used to both that I shoot them like I would a .22LR just put them up a fire no second thoughts no reaction other than the thing I am shooting at generally falls over.

Most guys who shoot heavy rifles as a matter of course handle them in exactly the same way.

If you are scared of your rifle then don't use it on dangerous game.

I went back and read your previous post about this exact same subject. Do think that you are going to get a different answer this time?

If you really want to hunt a lion with a light caliber go to Namibia, Zimbabwe or South Africa they all allow the hunting of lions with lighter calibers. If you've got a problem with the countries that do a have caliber minimum of .375H&H I'd recommend that you call their respective embassies and give them a piece of your mind as there is nothing that any of us here on THR can do about it.

Goos luck in your quest. And let me know how your lion hunts goes.


PS

I have hunted with and spoken to "them" extensively. Most will tell you that when following up on a lion a heavy caliber big bore double is the best way to go.

 

[saturno_v]

I can sling a pair of .470 NE into the same hole off hand at 50 yards about 90% of the time. I find the recoil of a .375H&H to be so mild that I hardly even notice that it's gone off.

I've killed hundreds of head of game with a .375H&H and dozens of head with a .470 NE. I am so used to both that I shoot them like I would a .22LR just put them up a fire no second thoughts no reaction other than the thing I am shooting at generally falls over.

You have the experience and you do not flinch shooting this rifles..some other people that go on safari do...I personally shot my dad's 460 Weatherby Magnum, is not that scary to me and I tolerate it just fine....I shoot for fun my 3 inches Magnum Brenneke 600 gr slugs out of my 12 ga...

I heard several times that some folks that go on safari do flinch and are not proficient with their big bores...Being loaded with dollars and gear doesn't necessarely means having proficiency...


That is exactly wihat the "old folk" I'm referring to are saying...better use a rifle that you can shoot prificiently that a gun you are nto accurate with because low recoil tolerances...

If you really want to hunt a lion with a light caliber go to Namibia, Zimbabwe or South Africa they all allow the hunting of lions with lighter calibers. If you've got a problem with the countries that do a have caliber minimum of .375H&H I'd recommend that you call their respective embassies and give them a piece of your mind as there is nothing that any of us here on THR can do about it.

Goos luck in your quest. And let me know how your lion hunts goes.

As I said before, I'm not interested in hunting

 

[eliphalet]

As I said before, I'm not interested in hunting

Then how do you know what folks should use to hunt with? What experience are you drawing from?

I shouldn't read threads about caliber choices as the
Internet is full of arm chair quarterbacks telling of what to use, where to use it, and under what conditions we can or should hunt under.

I guess all we need to do is read how to play football and be experts in that field too.

I have never hunted African lions but have hunted with guns that have or can hurt me at the bench. When a animal is in the sights pain never enters my mind nor do I ever feel any recoil that I am aware of shooting at them.

You can rest assured that when facing dangerous game that could take my life I would want a adequate firearm of approate caliber, and not one that can work when conditions are perfect.

My guess is that a lot of the know it all's we read here wouldn't have what it takes to hunt vicious game in the first place, and/or lack any first hand knowledge of the subjectat hand, but are experts at talking about it anyway.

 

[saturno_v]

Then how do you know what folks should use to hunt with? What experience are you drawing from?

I shouldn't read threads about caliber choices as the
Internet is full of arm chair quarterbacks telling of what to use where to use it and under what conditions we can or should hunt under.

I guess all we need to do is read how to play football and be experts in that field too.

I have never hunted African lions but have hunted with guns that have or can hurt me at the bench. When a animal is in the sights pain never enters my mind nor do I ever feel any recoil that I am aware of shooting at them.

You can rest assured that when facing dangerous game that could take my life I would want a adequate firearm of approate caliber, and not one that can work when conditions are perfect.
My guess is that a lot of the know it all's we read here wouldn't have what it takes to hunt vicious game in the first place, but are experts at talking about it anyway.

I pretty much made clear since my very first post that I'm not an expert in safaris (or hunting for that matter) that's why I like to discuss this with experts...I have a decent knowledge of ballistic but I never faced an angry bear or lion in my life and I hope I will never have to...

But I met with several people that hunted a lot in the African continent (and many were born there) and they are the ones that told me about the "sufficiency" or .30 cal guns for lions

Just last week I had a chat with a Rhodesian (the old name for Zimbabwe) man living in Vancouver BC that told me the the 7 mm Rem Magnum was a very popular lion cartridge over there in the past....

 

[M'bogo]

The risk of waking up a Water Buffalo while hunting saidsame lion.

They don't call it "Horned Death" for nothin'.

Indeed...Water Buffalo Good thing H&H has already pointed out the errors of your ways.

M'bogo

 

[Slamfire]

Well I guess it is back to post #17:

You guys are missing the point. Saturno_v has asked the same question, at least one before, http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=327663 and has not received the answer he wants.

He wants to hear that the 270, 7mm, 30-30's are perfectly good on Lions and Tigers and Bears.

And until he hears what he wants to hear, he will continue to ask variations on the same theme.

 

[saturno_v]

Slamfire1 I'm sorry that you just don't get it...

 

[Slamfire]

Slamfire1 I'm sorry that you just don't get it...

Hey, that's OK. I enjoyed reading all the posts, learned something, and had fun.

 

[Husker1911]

Slamfire1 I'm sorry that you just don't get it...

Yeah, but would my friend's .243Win be suitable for lion?


::just kidding::

 

[H&Hhunter]

The 7MM Mag is the legal minimum for lion and leopard in Zimbabwe.

You wouldn't catch me on bet hunting lions with a 7 MM of any kind.

I am guessing that you've never seen a real life African lion up close and personal in the wild?

I have and I'll be using a .375H&H as a bare minimum thank you very much.

Especially in the Zambezi valley of Zimbabwe which is comprised of some very tight thick cover and is infested with pissed off cow elephant and cape buffalo and hippos along the river.

I just got back from 14 days hunting there and I was carrying a scoped .375H&H only because my two heavy rifles were on the fritz. Walking in thick jesse with a scoped .375H&H is a naked feeling. I like more caliber and I like express sights or ghost rings scopes are just to damn slow in those conditions.

A 7MM in that country is asking for it. And No bell did NOT follow up elephants in thick jesse with a .275 Rigby (7X57) he used a .416 Rigby or a .450-400 for that kind of work.

People who haven't experienced it simply cannot believe how an elephant can disappear in that kind of country. I've been within 15 or twenty feet of an elephant and not known it until she busted out. Every year people get killed when said elephant decides to charge instead of run. heavy caliber and quick sights are your only chance in those conditions.

The amazing thing to me Saturno is that you've never hunted in Africa yet every experienced hunter you have met over here tells you that light calibers and lions are a good mix.

I've hunted Africa multiple times in lion country around wild lions with hunters who specialize in lions. I've never met one yet that would recommend a light caliber on lions NEVER EVER NOT ONCE.

Amazing isn't it? What are the chances?

 

[saturno_v]

H&H

If you come in Seattle I let you talk with the South African that sold me my rifle....

And I can let you talk with few Rhodesians and South African expatriates in Vancouver BC...

 

[saturno_v]

H&H

Maybe, as I start to understand from your message, certain hunting conditions requires different gear even if you hunt the same type of game..it makes sense and thank you for starting clarifying that...

 

[H&Hhunter]

Saturno,

I don't need to talk to your South African friend or your expat friends I am an experienced African safari hunter and I have developed my own thoughts/ rules on hunting dangerous game and the rifles/ammunition to be used. If somebody is telling me that they recommend a 7MM on lion I politely excuse myself from the room and walk away. I am quit comfortable with my rifle choices on big game and I am not going to change my mind based on what some guy who supposedly has hunted lion says.

I've found that just about every city boy South African I've ever met almost instantly becomes a great white hunter when they move to the USA or Canada. When it comes right down to it I've done a pile more DG hunting than most of them have.

Same goes for ex Rhodesians. Remember that only a very small percentage of the population actually hunts in those countries. More so in Rhodesia than South Africa but it is still rare to meet a guy who's actually done much serious hunting in the wild parts of Africa.

My bare minimum for any dangerous game is a .375H&H shooting quality 300 gr bullets, softs and solids.

My minimum on elephant is something in the .416 Rigby class and up, preferably way up.


And yes the country side being hunted makes a huge difference on the equipment that should be used.

 

[saturno_v]

Well the people I talked to, they are backed by great pictures..unless they are fake.....

H&H

When are you going to carry a 50 BMG down there??

Just kidding..

Thanks anyway for sharing your experiences, I learned a bit more...safaris fascinate me even if I do not plan to take part in one...

 

[R.W.Dale]

As I said before, I'm not interested in hunting

Too bad lots of Lions skewered from brisket to butt with 270s in the past decades didn't know that....

I take it you've never seen a well hit critter run for a couple minutes. When this happens to a cute and gentle whitetail it's merely an inconvenience in recovering the carcass. When this happens with a lion YOU DIE.

.
Would be interesting to ask Jack O'Connor his opinion if he were still alive....

I have no use for anything some gunwriter, modern or past tense, feels fit to pontificate apoun to sell magazines/books. Most of their drivel must be taken with a VERY large grain of salt. Like a 270 skewering a lion end to end?

I saw that video several times...if you pay close attention the shooters missed the target so many times even at very short distance...they were shooting all over the place....you can see the plumes where the bullets hit the ground...talking about shot placement....

Gimmie a break AS if you could hit a very hungry target charging directly for you at speeds approaching 40mph. In this situation the only target you'll manage to hit will be the back of your underwear

I think I'll do us all a favor

 

[saturno_v]

Krochus

I respect a lot people that have experience and are willing to share them on here, I learned quite a bit from H&H

I just to not like you condescending attitude and the fact that you feel free to say that I unload BS on here when you do not know anything about me...


Lion drilled from end to end with 270?

Yep it happened,, do not ask me the dynamics or the distance I have no reason to doubt them, maybe the small bullet do not generate big wound channels, the big cat didn't die immediately, whatever you want...but last time I checked Lions are not bullet proof or wear a kevblar vest..and a properly constructed .270 or .30 bullet at close range is going to ruin anybody day, including simba....a charging lion must be a terrifyng sight and can be hit several times without feeling the pain...but bulletproof is not...have you ever seen a solid oak tree drilled completely by a high power bullet rifle?? well I had..For example I would like to show you what even a cheap Mosin Nagant bullet does to an oak tree...

I have no use for anything some gunwriter, modern or past tense, feels fit to pontificate apoun to sell magazines/books. Most of their drivel must be taken with a VERY large grain of salt. Like a 270 skewering a lion end to end?

While I agree with you that the press industry is definitely motivated by profits, I would not doubt too much people like O'Connors and many many others that never wrote a book or in a magazine but they have been there and did their safari hunting before you and me were an itch in our father pants.....

Gimmie a break AS if you could hit a very hungry target charging directly for you at speeds approaching 40mph. In this situation the only target you'll manage to hit will be the back of your underwear

Well...I never said I was able to do better did I??? but they were shooting all over the place and it is a fact....I'm terrified at the thought of a charging lion so I do not participate in a safari (and for other reasons too)....but I think that if someone wants to do it, he/she should be able to manage their emotions and somewhat mantain their calm. otherwise they have no business in a safari hunting IMHO

 

[R.W.Dale]

For example I would like to show you what even a cheap Mosin Nagant bullet does to an oak tree.

I know what it does. You should see what one does to 3/4" A588 steel plate

A FMJ from 7.62x54r IS not even remotely comparable to an expanding .277 diameter hunting bullet and neither holds a candle to a .375 caliber+ TBBC

but last time I checked Lions are not bullet proof or wear a kevblar vest..and a properly constructed .270 bullet at close range is going to ruin anybody day inclusing simba..

YEAH but how long will it take to die???????

You've odiously not hunted much, because if you shoot enough critters with medium bore high powered rifles you'll eventually get to see a critter that didn't seem to notice it had been shot even though it was supposed to be dead.
With a deer this is an inconvenience, with a lion it can be life threatening. Shooting game doesn't always work out in the field like it does on the outdoor channel or in magazines.

Sometimes BANG isn't immediately followed by FLOP even with the best shot placement. This is why I started shooting the shoulder on game instead of the heart lung area. It's hard for them to get away if you take out their undercarriage.The same thing applies to a degree with very dangerous critters hence my above comment about rending and crushing tissue and bone. A 270 WON'T take out both shoulders of a lion or poleaxe kitty end to end preventing a charge 375H&H will.

 

[saturno_v]

A FMJ from 7.62x54r IS not even remotely comparable to an expanding .277 diameter hunting bullet and neither holds a candle to a .375 caliber+ TBBC

Who said that I was talking about a FMJ bullet??? A cheap Barnaul 203 gr. soft point....

Actually I would not be suprised if a X54R FMJ (the 185 gr are particularly terrifying in the penetration department) would penetrate more in some circumstances than a 375+ elephant rifle bullet..before you say it.. I know the wound channel is way smaller, but that is beside the point

YEAH but how long will it take to die???????

Who said about dying istantly?? I did aknowledge that already....The point we were we talking about was going from end to end and you questioned that....a high quality .270 would do just that (a Winchester XP3 for example)...yes the charging lion may not feel it, a .375 or more will do a much more devstating job, but it is beside the point.

I never hunted in my life, i said that several times but I know one thing or two about ballistics and I know that animals are not bullet proof...

 

[Art Eatman]

This has descended into pointless backing and forthing. Enuf.

Art