270 Winchester too light for lions???

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saturno_v

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Yes it's me again with an other post about "undepowered" rounds :D:D:D:D

Let's begin to say that I never been on a Safari...

Why in several countries the minimum caliber for lions is the 375???

We are talking an animal that, at the most, reaches 550 lb and it is a thin skinned animal...

Why the 270 Win, with the appropriate bullets (I heard that the Winchester XP3 perform beautifully in this caliber) cannot be safely used???

The 270 Win can take a Moose or an American Buffalo....

One hunter, during the heydays of safari hunting in Africa, got killed hunting a lion with a 280 Ross but the problem in that situation was that at the time bullet technology for high velocity calibers was in its infancy and the 2 well placed bullets, fired by the hunter before getting killed, exploded on impact failing to reach the heart....

I saw lions up close (zoos and photo safari in Africa) and my impression is that a high quality 270 round, even at good range, should just get through the thing....

Maybe I'm wrong...opinions???


Happy New Year!!!
 
I guess people just want as big of a round as they can get because if he doesn't die your in trouble. I would say a .270 is adequate, as I have seen buffalo killed with it. That's a lot of head to hit though.:D
 
Happy New Year!

Now, what is the point of these threads? Can't you just take a hypothetical view in your mind on the issue of "calibers (not) being too small" and leave it at that? I mean, does it really matter? You aren't hunting lions, are you? Or is it your intention to create the same arguments we see daily over again? I'm not trying to sound like an ass to you, but I think you can predict the two-sided outcomes of these style threads, as we see them a bit often.

The regulations are there because it is one of the top 5 dangerous animals in Africa, and they want clean, high powered kills for a mean animal, one would assume. I can't think of any better reasoning than that.

With that being said, I can't understand why someone would want to be caught with only a 270 as their rifle in Africa. I would not want to be charged by a big animal, and piss it off with those 150gr bullets. I'd rather send something 500-900grs its way.
 
Actually the 375 minimum limit for lions is mandatory by law in some country not a hunter "trend"...

I think a more reasonable approach should be the mandatory use of well constructed bullets rather than the generic caliber limit....
And furthermore the hunter MUST demonstrate that he can take WELL AIMED shots with the rifle.....I bet there are a lot of rich thrill-seekers that on a safari shoot all over the place with their expensive big bore cannons and then the guide must finish the job with a cheap Mossberg or Remington shotgun with slugs.....
 
If this were you would you rather havea 270 or a 375 H&H?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_yTN...eature=related
Click to expand...


Trust me at that distance, a 223 well aimed does the trick.....


X Matt

The point of these threads is to talk about guns with fellow gun lovers and exchange opinions...sorry if it bothers you.....

Actually I think the limit is some sort of government oversight shortcut.....rather than checking the bullets you use, they mandate the use of 375 because any commercial round in that caliber uses by default a well constructed bullet I think....no danger of someone showing up with a box of cheap soft points.....


My point is that if one day we will find a way to propell bullets at 5000 ft/sec, that, sooner or later, will become the "minimum" accepted for certain type of hunt...because at that time the thrill-seeker will shoot from one mile with a heat seeker scope with a backup of a team of 50 cal armed guides...

In the meantime I do not think animals evolved into bulletproof beings...
 
first off, I have not hunted anything bigger than deer type, but from what all I have read, Lions are about the top toughest animals in Africa to bring down, because they are so tenacious of life, and so full of wanting to kill.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1FivamFXms&feature=related
this lion gets shot 6 or 7 times before he is brought down, and they aint' shootin
him with peashooters either. And if you look closely , he is getting shot, dead on in his face, and still connects on the charge.
or maybe you would prefer to be touched by one of these soft, cuddly creatures;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7HCIGFdBt8&feature=related
 
I saw that video several times and I had the impression that all the shots, except for the first that got the lion enraged in the first place and the last one (or two) at the end, they went wildly off target (you can clearly see the plumes of dirt where the bullets hits)
And there are several comments on that video that mention the same impression....totally off target shots...
 
I remember reading in an old American Rifleman that the .300 Savage was pretty effective on lions. The .270 would probably be OK too.
 
he clearly catches one in the face, while running, look at his face/muzzle blast,(possible red splash?) and another in the jaw? as he is getting airborne, he appears almost unconscious as he is passing the dude, and totally piles up on impact with the ground.
 
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On my last trip to Zimbabwe we were following a herd of Buff. We came out of the brush into a clearing that had a small pride lying under an Acacia tree.
They saw us but the wind was in our favor. One lioness got up to check us out. She approached to within 40 yards and stopped at which the male in the group got up. Man, you could hear the safeties going off. As we eased away they made no move to follow up.
I was carrying a 416 Rigby and felt undergunned. It's one thing to talk about it and compare ballistics on paper and entirely another to be standing toe to toe with the real thing. I will absolutely admit to being fearful.
You can learn a hell of a lot by watching your tracker. In this case he was armed with a .375. From the moment we laid eyes on them until we moved off he had his rifle shouldered. He had been in this situation before and knew what could happen in a big hurry.
As I had no interest in lion I was loaded with solids for Buff.
The reason for the 375 minimum in certain countries is to keep to many Bwanas from getting stomped, gored or bitten and it's a good rule. It also helps prevent the loss of game and a second crittter being taken illegally.
As for the 270, IMHO it's marginal for plains game. I've always carried a 300 mag for antelope and such. Many of the smaller species could easily be taken with a 223, but you never know when you might stumble on a 1,500 lb Cape Eland, or a 500 lb. Kudu or Gemsbok.
 
We are talking an animal that, at the most, reaches 550 lb and it is a thin skinned animal...
Click to expand...

While they may be thin skinned by definition a big cat will do everything it can do to KILL it's attacker before it expires. You must literally break down their bone stricture in order to keep them from closing the distance between you and them in about a second and a half at which point you're going to get your face chewed off.

To the original poster

With all due respect I can tell you've not shot many animals with a rifle. Cause if you had you would know that even a lowly whitetail deer can take a surprisingly long amount of time to expire from a high powered rifle shot. The difference between a mortally wounded deer and a lion is the deer is going to run away or lie down to expire and a lion will make a point of taking you to hell with him.

Me I tend to err on the side of not getting my face chewed off vs proving a point to my gun shop buddies
 
Well, having never been on Safari or hunting outside of my home state even...I'd heard that the 303 round used to do the trick. However, heres a little armchair common sense: Bear in mind you'd be hunting an animal that has a long history of predatory attacks on humans--in short, you're on the menu. Also, it may, and given that you're on the menu probably will, choose fight over flight which means after a double lung shot it has a specified amount of time to get to you and maul you. Deer run the opposite direction, but this thing may be coming for you...

So, in the absense of any game laws what rifle do you want to have when that happens?
 
I was carrying a 416 Rigby and felt undergunned. It's one thing to talk about it and compare ballistics on paper and entirely another to be standing toe to toe with the real thing. I will absolutely admit to being fearful.
Click to expand...
True dat.

Good story - thanks for the perspective.
 
Ain't real worried about lions. Mountain Lion maybe, but there ain't even a ZOO with lions within 140 miles of me.

It's always spooky when you know the animal sees you as a nice, juicy big mac. People that talk about hogs as "dangerous game", well, they ain't out to eat you. There's really only two, maybe 3 animals in the new world that see you that way, brown bear, polar bear, and, maybe, perhaps a gator if you're dumb enough to go swimming with 'em. I don't know, I might toss in Mountain Lion and Jaguar there. But, it ain't like they make a human kill every day, either, as with the others, actually. Jaguar would spook me a bit, though. Mountain Lions aren't a big threat. Only the polar bear would give me the big time jeevees, though, and it's too danged cold up there for me!!!!! A lion, well, they evolved eating humans of one species or another. It's in their diet!
 
I have no doubt that a Lion could be taken with a 270 providing you have a good rest, a perfect broadside shot and perfect bullet placement. Only problem is you aint gonna' find all three. Were I wealthy I'd send you over with a 270 and let you find out what it's like to really fear your quarry. Being at the top of the food chain it's a hard feeling to describe. It's humbling to say the least. The Cape Eland is a 1500 lb. antelope with a very docile demeanor. On my first trip we were hunting gemsbok when we came across a group of maybe 12 with a nice bull in the rear. We changed gears and got into position on the Eland. I hit him 3 times on the wink with a 300 Wby shooting 180 grain Noslers at 70 yards and he didn't go down. We decided to follow him hoping he'd get sick. After 20 minutes or so he went down but wasn't out.
I walked up close to assure a perfect shot. When I did he tried to get up, and when he did I realized he was gonna be taller than me. A very spooky feeling.
I highly recommend you get a copy of Death in the Long Grass by Peter Capstick. He goes through the big five with advice and interesting stories. A great, easy read.
You'll find what he has to say informative.
 
I have to agree with Krochus. Of course the .270 can kill a lion, people kill lions in Africa with bows quite frequently. The problem is, what will happen between the time when you poke it with a 150 gr. .270 round and its expiration. Wild animals have an amazing will to survive and pound-for-pound, their strength is estimated to be 5-7x that of a human. Lions are incredible beasts who deserve the respect you would show any quarry, instead of viewing them as a ballistics experiment.
 
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