Why such a long SA pull on DA semis?

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TargetTerror

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The thing I actually like most about Glocks is that there is virtually no takeup before you reach the engagement point where the trigger breaks. For me, this makes rapid fire MUCH easier/more accurate than in traditional style DA guns, as I find the takeup throws off my aim as my trigger finger has to move around much more.

I just can't figure out why there are no hammer fired DA guns without all that takeup. All the Berettas, S&Ws, Sigs, and Rugers I've shot all have a ton of takeup.

Edit: I realize I only put this in the title: I'm talking about the SINGLE ACTION pull on these DA guns, NOT the DA pull. I understand obviously that you need such a long pull for DA to cock the hammer. I'm perplexed as to why they all tend to have so much dead travel on SUBSEQUENT SA shots.
 
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the reason for the travel lenght is that the DA trigger pull has to draw back to hammer for the first shot.

the striker doesn't have the same lenght of travel and is already partially cocked by the slide.

the striker fired Glock cannot be fired without the slide being pulled back and released, the DA/SA pistols use the DA trigger pull to take the hammer from "rest" to fully cocked and then release with each stroke of the trigger.

in spite of their advertising, the Glock does not use a DAO trigger

the longer trigger stroke is safer when tension and stress is heightened

the DA trigger is just as fast and accurate as any other in real world use...you just have to know how to use it and be willing to practice with it
 
I mean that when most DA gun are in single action mode, there is a significant amount of dead travel before you get to where the trigger breaks. I'm not talking about the DA pull.
 
Once you fire the first double action shot you don't have to completely come off the trigger-all you have to do is move your finger just enough forward for the trigger to reset-then you can pull again. It takes practice but you can learn it.
If you are interested in using a DA/SA gun this thread might be of interest to you www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=479645
 
sorry...i misunderstood

if you mean the takeup/slack between SA shots, Mike J hit the nail on the head

it's only long if you let the trigger all the way out to the forward end of it's travel. you only have to let it out to the reset point. the extra distance is for the leverage needed for the DA trigger stroke
 
Touche gentlemen, I do indeed always let the trigger all the way out. I actually never really considered not letting it out all the way, but obviously that makes sense. That probably comes from too much rapid fire with a revolver - if you don't let trigger out all the way the action essentially freezes until you stop and let it out the rest of the way (and I believe in some models doing that will cause it to skip over the next cylinder too).
 
I understand Target I shot semi autos mostly for the last couple of years. A couple of months ago I got my old Dan Wesson .357 back & it took me a minute to figure out that the reason the cylinder wasn't advancing properly was because I wasn't releasing the trigger fully.
 
Probably has something to do with the way the disconnector works on various guns.

The GLOCK trigger is fairly unique in the way it has a very short reset, it "clicks" very distinctly when it resets, and once it's reset, there's no slack. It resets right at the breaking point.

There is a trade-off though. The GLOCK trigger has more over-travel than many other automatics. It's almost like the GLOCK trigger is backwards. A traditional trigger breaks, then moves forward to reset, then back again to take out the slack. The GLOCK trigger breaks, then moves back, then forward again to reset with no slack. But because the "over-travel" happens with the shot, all you have to do between shots is let the trigger forward a bit. So the GLOCK trigger might be considered faster, in a sense, for rapid fire.
 
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I have a charles daly dda which is a cz clone and it has very little take up or overtravel in single action. I use to have a cz 75b that was the same way. I know what you mean on the take up, I have 2 ruger p series autos. Mark
 
The Glock is a DAO (Double Action Only) pistol. The trigger performs two tasks: it completes the cocking of the striker and it releases the striker to fire the pistol. Even the ATF classifies the Glock as a DAO design.
 
that the ATF classifies the Glock action as a DOA is a testament to Glocks ability to spin...and isn't worth arguing. just as it isn't worth arguing the basic safety fault in the procedure to field strip the gun.

but let me ask you this.

which other generally acknowledged DAO pistol does not have a 2nd strike capability?

the trigger of a Glock will not cock the hammer once released, unless the action is cycled either by the discharge of the cartridge or by manually retraction the slide...i would say that this makes it somewhat less than a DAO
 
To 9mmepiphany;

I certainly understand your take on whether or not Glock is a DAO gun. But please consider this. Kel-Tec uses a hammer for its ignition system and it describes its actions as DAO (ref: the P11). The P11 has second strike capability, too. Now consider the Kahr system. They also refer to their actions as DAO. They use a striker for ignition, like the Glock, and do not have second strike capability. In the case of the Kahr and the Glock, the slide's action rearward partially cocks the striker; the trigger has nothing to do with this task. I can only complete the cocking of the striker, then release it to fire the pistol. And that is where the DAO description comes from.

I know the Glock action has been discussed many times on a number of sites (I certainly have been party to this), but traditionally, the action label in these contexts always refers to what the trigger does, not the slide or the hammer or anything else.
 
Once you fire the first double action shot you don't have to completely come off the trigger-all you have to do is move your finger just enough forward for the trigger to reset-then you can pull again. It takes practice but you can learn it.


What Mike describes is the proper way to use a DA/SA trigger. Doing it this way eliminates the tendency for the first two shots to spread.
 
The Glock is a DAO (Double Action Only) pistol. The trigger performs two tasks: it completes the cocking of the striker and it releases the striker to fire the pistol. Even the ATF classifies the Glock as a DAO design.
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You are correct in the functioning of the Glock but it is not a true DAO as the striker is partially cocked. The reason ATF classified the Glock as a DAO is because that was close to it's actual function. There was nothing like it on the market at the time.
 
The reason ATF classified the Glock as a DAO is because that was close to it's actual function

the big upside for Glock was that it allowed them to bid on LE contracts that specify DAO pistols and it lets them compete in IDPA's Stock Pistol division ...of course it didn't help them in the M9 trials
 
Um, the second strike capability has to do with design, the striker is reset by the slide and only engages once the slide is forward, for a glock to have second strike, the trigger would have to be able to engage an uncocked striker. Early Kel Tec don't have second strike, the redesigned the hammer block to allow the trigger to engage it when the hammer was forward and not cocked.
 
The important part is the Glock feels like an SA trigger, and has a very short reset like a SA. I like the reset on my Taurus 24/7 Pro; you can work the trigger faster than the lightweight .45 pistol can recover from recoil, though.
 
Glocks strikers start at the half way position being held there by the trigger mechanism after cycling the action. When you fire the Glock 1/2 the pull has already been done for you.

With conventional DA auto's the trigger pulls back the hammer for its full travel until release so you have to do all the work. That's why the pull is longer.

There are some hammer fired DA systems that don't have the long heavy trigger pull. The Dawoo DP pistols have a tri-action or fast-action or some such name that allows you to simply push the cocked hammer forward to rest in the uncocked position. When the trigger is pulled the hammer is brought back to full cock by the action with little effort as the mainspring remains compressed giving you something between DA and SA type trigger pull. The trigger will also work as the typical DA pull on the first shot if the hammer is decocked rather than pushed forward after being cocked.

I understand some of the later Browning DA HP pistols had a similar type system from what I could tell reading the description in a magazine.
 
Once you fire the first double action shot you don't have to completely come off the trigger-all you have to do is move your finger just enough forward for the trigger to reset-then you can pull again. It takes practice but you can learn it.

Yes, but on many DA/SA guns, the reset point is noticeably forward from where the break point is. This means that once reset, you still have to stage the trigger before getting back to the break point. So even if the reset is the same distance as a GLOCK trigger, it may feel like it's longer. I think that's one of the reasons why many people comment on how short the reset is on a GLOCK. It's really a matter of having a pretty short reset, and near zero pre-staging once it is set.

Beyond that, some guns don't have any tactile feedback at the point where the trigger resets.

Guns like those are easier to short-stroke/whiff.
 
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which other generally acknowledged DAO pistol does not have a 2nd strike capability?

S&W metal-framed DAO models.

Couldn't resist. ;)

You're right in that everything else is silly to argue about, though.

One thought I'd like to express is an opinion that shooting to trigger reset in SA mode can be a potentially dangerous thing to do, depending on the circumstances.

Shooting to SA trigger reset in a dedicated safe target/bulls eye shooting situation is one thing, but trying to keep a finger on the trigger and only allow SA trigger recovery to the 'reset' point in any other conditions, especially those involving a perception of heightened risk and an unlawful threat of serious bodily injury or death, can arguably significantly elevate the potential risk of a ND.

I've seen any number of folks unintentionally 'double' when qualifying on a course of fire when they kept their fingers on the trigger after the intentional first shot. Some really surprised faces. In most cases it seemed to be caused by 'rocking under recoil' with a finger on the trigger, although I can think of some where the shooter seemingly just lost focus of what they were doing with their trigger finger, which was still on the trigger in SA mode, and they twitched or tightened their finger without realizing it. Not good when bullets fly unintentionally.

Now, S&W traditional double action pistols have always enjoyed the reputation of having the shortest and 'fastest' SA trigger reset among TDA semiauto pistols. (Although, the Walther AS model's single action sear function is pretty short in the 99 series, too.) When I attended a Sig armorer class I was told that the Short Reset Trigger option (a different sear and sear spring) had originally been designed to compete against S&W in a large LE contract bid, and that the new design was actually mechanically shorter in operation than the S&W design. If I remember right, someone from Sig at that class said the difference was something along the order of the Sig design having approx a 20 thousandths of an inch shorter SA reset. Maybe so. I couldn't tell the difference by finger, that's for sure.

Considering all the different handguns I shoot (revolver & pistol), I've long since reverted to having my trigger finger allow complete trigger recovery when shooting, even when shooting intentionally fast shot strings. It only took a few instances of short-stroking a trigger when using a different gun - (switching between different designs of semiauto pistols as well as between pistols & revolvers) - to convince me that full trigger recovery was a good thing in stressful situations.

If I'm working on a specific trigger press skill on a target/bulls eye range, that's one thing. If I'm working to complete a course of fire including multiple targets, movement across uneven ground, in variable/low light, as well as having to identify threat/non-threat situations, I let my trigger and finger fully recover and keep my finger away from the trigger between intentional shots.

Personally, I'd not like to try and explain to a jury how allowing a trigger to only recover to the 'reset point', and keeping my finger on it to keep it from moving farther forward in case I may decide to fire again ... and then having the gun unintentionally fire because of an interlimb interaction (also called sympathetic squeeze), which is the involuntary contraction of an individual’s hand and finger muscles ... is somehow different than just having a finger on the trigger and triggering a ND. :scrutiny:

The fine distinction in intention might be lost on the jury.

There have been some excellently skilled 'trigger slappers' who showed that it was possible to shoot both fast and accurately when allowing full trigger recovery between each shot, too.

I cringe whenever I hear another instructor teaching someone to 'just let your trigger finger go forward until the trigger resets'. What are the circumstances being considered and addressed at the moment? Is it for shooting a timed bulls eye course of fire, where a fine SA trigger stroke using a competition trigger may mean the points for winning? Or, for if the shooter ever finds him/herself in a chaotic, rapidly changing, physically tumultuous life threatening situation when their fine motor skills may be in short supply and their attention and focus may be distracted from realizing a fraction of an inch of movement of their finger has occurred against a trigger face ... until it's too late?

As far as the original question?

Probably because different traditional double action (DA/SA) semiauto pistol designs have to accomplish both mechanical actions (DA & SA modes) taking into consideration the inherent limitations of combining both operations in their various designs. Some seem to have achieved it better than others.

Even the various DA/DAO trigger operations can have some variance in both trigger movement and trigger pull weight, though.

Then, there's the growing number of diverse designs which don't easily allow for them to be exactly pigeon-holed into the simple designations we've commonly accepted over the years.

Hey, just my thoughts. I'm certainly nobody's 'expert' anything at this stuff.

There are some serious potential issues to consider when discussing 'shooting to trigger reset', and discussing it in person with a trainer might offer some helpful insight into the subject.
 
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