CAnnoneer
Member
Can anybody enlighten me why the commies developed the 9x18? Clearly a Mak cannot accept the Luger 9x19, so how would the incompatibility be of use the the commies? Can a 9x19 accept the 9x18?
why the 9x18?
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Justin
Moderator Emeritus
No idea as to why, they made the round different. However, you can't shoot 9x18 in a pistol chambered for 9x19. The Mak round has a larger diameter.
Could very well be wrong but I thought it was because 9X18 was considered to be the most powerful round that could be fired out of a smaller and very simple blowback design (at least during the time frame that it was designed). This enabled them to produce the Makarov faster and with much less expense by keeping to a simple blow back design. 9X18 gave them the most bang for the buck given this idea.
Double Maduro
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Don't know why. I'm just glad they did. My little Bulgy is a lot of fun.
DM
DM
PCRCCW
Member
Why ask Why????? 
Why is the GAP or 357 Sig not dead yet? They are a good chambering and people like them. Thats why...................
Shoot well
Why is the GAP or 357 Sig not dead yet? They are a good chambering and people like them. Thats why...................Shoot well
Reed1911
Member
RDE was correct. The 9x18 Makarov 9x18 Ultra are the most powerful rounds that can be used in a strait blowback design. It's a simple action that works well and the East Bloc didn't want to change what worked well. Many people will comment that it is too low power for use as a self defense caliber, but they fail to really look at it objectivly. It is in the lower power class, however look at the comparison to the .38 Special and .380 ACP:
.38 SP - 110g 1050FPS 269FPE
.38 SP - 125g 1000FPS 277FPE
9x18M - 95g 1047FPS 231FPE
9x18M - 115g 1000FPS 255FPE
.380 ACP - 90g 1100FPS 241FPE
.380 ACP - 100g 950FPS 200FPE
.38 SP - 110g 1050FPS 269FPE
.38 SP - 125g 1000FPS 277FPE
9x18M - 95g 1047FPS 231FPE
9x18M - 115g 1000FPS 255FPE
.380 ACP - 90g 1100FPS 241FPE
.380 ACP - 100g 950FPS 200FPE
MrTuffPaws
Member
Well, the Ruskies may not have invented it at all. They got a Walther plant in EG during the war, and some say that the Mak was a stolen design from Germany. You might have to ask why the Germans developed it.
PCRCCW
Member
Not a slam........as rumors travel far and wide on the net.........But a brush up on Mak history may be needed here...A russian designed the gun. The design is NOTHING like the Walther. Its has 1/2 of the working pcs in the gun. The design of the Makarov is as inventive and as simple in its mechanics as the 1911. It can be taken apart with NO TOOLS except the magazine to get the grip off.
Shoot well
Shoot well
MrTuffPaws
Member
^^^^^
Hmmm, I remember reading something about at the end of the war, Walther designed a round that was almost exactly the same as the 9x18. Oh well. Here is a history of the gun
Hmmm, I remember reading something about at the end of the war, Walther designed a round that was almost exactly the same as the 9x18. Oh well. Here is a history of the gun
RON in PA
Member
Re: the 9x18 round. The Soviets had the machinery to produce the 7.62 x 25 Tokarev cartridge which has the same base as the 9x19 Luger. To produce a straight case for a blowback pistol and all they had to do was take the Tok. case, trim it to proper length and remove any remaining taper. You can do the same with a luger case, works very well. The straightened case needs a .363 bullet, not the .355 bullet of the 9x19 Luger round. It was a matter of using the machinery they already had, plus the advantage of having a round not interchangeable with the enemy's ammo.
Teakwood
Member
The 9x18 round was invented by a Russian before the Makarov was developed. It was used by Makarov since it was a Russian round, was the heaviest round that could be fired from a simple blowgack pistol, and had better characteristics.
The 9x18 Makarov round is actually 9.2 mm.
Makarov deloped the pistol in the late '40's in response to a Soviet military desire to have something to replace the aging T-33. The pistol was innovative and is made up of only 27 parts. As previously noted, it can be completely stripped down with only simple tools.
The 9x18 Ultra or Police round is a Western European round that was actually introduced before WW II but never went very far. Post WW II, Walther reintroduced the use of that round in their PP pistols. The 9x18 Ultra and the 9x18 Makarov are not interchangable.
The Russians had no desire to make their round interchangable with those of other nations. In fact, they tried to find ways that their potential enemies could not use their ammo. However, in a pinch, they could use the enemies ammo. For example, a 9x18 Makarov round will blow up a 9x17 or 9x19 pistol. However, a 9x17 can be fire in a Makarov IN AN EMERGENCY.
The 9x18 Makarov round is actually 9.2 mm.
Makarov deloped the pistol in the late '40's in response to a Soviet military desire to have something to replace the aging T-33. The pistol was innovative and is made up of only 27 parts. As previously noted, it can be completely stripped down with only simple tools.
The 9x18 Ultra or Police round is a Western European round that was actually introduced before WW II but never went very far. Post WW II, Walther reintroduced the use of that round in their PP pistols. The 9x18 Ultra and the 9x18 Makarov are not interchangable.
The Russians had no desire to make their round interchangable with those of other nations. In fact, they tried to find ways that their potential enemies could not use their ammo. However, in a pinch, they could use the enemies ammo. For example, a 9x18 Makarov round will blow up a 9x17 or 9x19 pistol. However, a 9x17 can be fire in a Makarov IN AN EMERGENCY.
Reed1911
Member
And hopefully his smaller brain capacity will prevent breeding to occur
That is a seriously idiotic thing to do. Even with the smaller case and bullet dia. the front of the 9x19 case is jammed into the throat of the barrel causing the grip to be heavier on the bullet, not to mention the fact that the higher pressure and more significantly the higher backthrust can and will cause the slide to begin extraction before the pressure in the barrel has dropped to a low enough level to be safe. Yes, it is possible to fire 9x18 Ultra and 9x17 (.380acp) in a 9x19 Makarov with some degree of safety, but there is no reason to do it. All that will result is a potential hazard and very reduced ballistics.
As a side note to those who are scratchng their heads, the 9x18 Ultra is an 18mm long 9mm case and 9mm bullet Vs. the 9x18 Makarov being an 18mm long 9.2mm case and 9.2mm bullet. The 9x18 Ultra is not run into very often.
That is a seriously idiotic thing to do. Even with the smaller case and bullet dia. the front of the 9x19 case is jammed into the throat of the barrel causing the grip to be heavier on the bullet, not to mention the fact that the higher pressure and more significantly the higher backthrust can and will cause the slide to begin extraction before the pressure in the barrel has dropped to a low enough level to be safe. Yes, it is possible to fire 9x18 Ultra and 9x17 (.380acp) in a 9x19 Makarov with some degree of safety, but there is no reason to do it. All that will result is a potential hazard and very reduced ballistics.
As a side note to those who are scratchng their heads, the 9x18 Ultra is an 18mm long 9mm case and 9mm bullet Vs. the 9x18 Makarov being an 18mm long 9.2mm case and 9.2mm bullet. The 9x18 Ultra is not run into very often.
I might be wrong, but I dont think a tapered 9mm luger round will fit very well in a makarov, and even if it does, I wouldnt want to fire it because of the design of the mak barrel and action ( they are made for a straight wall case)
Jim Watson
Member
Everybody knows that the Soviets adopted the 9.2 x 18 Makarov/Stetchkin so they could shoot captured .380 ammunition (from the Italians) but not vice versa. And it is equally well known that they deployed an 82 mm mortar so they could shoot our 81mm shells but we couldn't use theirs.
But I do have a historical question that seems not to be common knowledge:
Is the pre WW II 9mm Ultra meant for a gun that looked like a Walther PP with an extended barrel exactly the same as the 1970s 9mm Police? I had the perception that the '30s Ultra was a shortened 9mm P and the '70s 9mm Police was a lengthened .380, but cannot document it now.
But I do have a historical question that seems not to be common knowledge:
Is the pre WW II 9mm Ultra meant for a gun that looked like a Walther PP with an extended barrel exactly the same as the 1970s 9mm Police? I had the perception that the '30s Ultra was a shortened 9mm P and the '70s 9mm Police was a lengthened .380, but cannot document it now.
Sounds logical enough, but do you have any supporting evidence for this? Surprisingly enough, many of the things "everybody knows" aren't true...
Reed1911,
I believe the specs for the .38 special loads you listed are for +P rounds. Standard .38 special velocity numbers are lower than that.
most powerful blowback?
The 9.2x18mm Makarov round is the most potent that can safely be fired in a simple blowback?????
Isn't a STEN smg (and many other 'bullet hoses') a 'simple blowback'?? just in full auto? it uses the more potent still 9x19.
Is there a difference in the action in terms of safety? is a FA not considered a 'simple blowback'?
maybe I need a lesson in action-types.
Or, maybe there was a weight/mass/use of raw material requirement and the 9x18 was the best in simple blowback given a certain maximum size of the pistol requirement?
C-
The 9.2x18mm Makarov round is the most potent that can safely be fired in a simple blowback?????
Isn't a STEN smg (and many other 'bullet hoses') a 'simple blowback'?? just in full auto? it uses the more potent still 9x19.
Is there a difference in the action in terms of safety? is a FA not considered a 'simple blowback'?
maybe I need a lesson in action-types.
Or, maybe there was a weight/mass/use of raw material requirement and the 9x18 was the best in simple blowback given a certain maximum size of the pistol requirement?
C-
cpileri,
Blowback pistol. The size and recoil limitations of pistols impose different design restrictions on them compared to a submachinegun or carbine.
Although you can easily make a straight blowback 9x19mm carbine that will be of relatively normal size, a straight blowback 9x19mm pistol will be noticeably larger and heavier than a typical autopistol--or it will have a much heavier recoil spring than normal.
Blowback pistol. The size and recoil limitations of pistols impose different design restrictions on them compared to a submachinegun or carbine.
Although you can easily make a straight blowback 9x19mm carbine that will be of relatively normal size, a straight blowback 9x19mm pistol will be noticeably larger and heavier than a typical autopistol--or it will have a much heavier recoil spring than normal.
A blowback 9x19 pistol will look, well, like the Hi-Point 9x19 pistol. They do work and very well, but don't exactly fall into the "compact" class.
A blowback submachine gun almost always fires from an open bolt, and uses advance primer ignition (API). That means that the bolt is still moving forward when the fixed firing pin touches off the primer, and the pressure forcing the cartridge case to the rear has to overcome the remaining momentum of the bolt. Plus the bolt is heavier than the slide of a conventional pistol.
As to the adoption of the 9x18 Makarov (to distinguish between it and the 9x18 Police/Super), I would think the Soviet Union, a world power, adopted a pistol and a cartridge to suit their needs, with no concern whatsover for what other nations did or were doing.
The Russian Army, like most armies (including our own), considered the pistol a very secondary weapon, to be used only for personal defense and as a badge of office, not as an offense weapon to be used in attacking an enemy. They had much better weapons for that purpose, like the AK-47.
So they adopted a small, handy pistol that would be easily carried and would be at hand for situations like dealing with infiltrators or rebels. If an officer in, say, a company command post, sees someone in the wrong uniform come in the door, he is likely to have his PM at hand while his AK is in the corner.
Jim
A blowback submachine gun almost always fires from an open bolt, and uses advance primer ignition (API). That means that the bolt is still moving forward when the fixed firing pin touches off the primer, and the pressure forcing the cartridge case to the rear has to overcome the remaining momentum of the bolt. Plus the bolt is heavier than the slide of a conventional pistol.
As to the adoption of the 9x18 Makarov (to distinguish between it and the 9x18 Police/Super), I would think the Soviet Union, a world power, adopted a pistol and a cartridge to suit their needs, with no concern whatsover for what other nations did or were doing.
The Russian Army, like most armies (including our own), considered the pistol a very secondary weapon, to be used only for personal defense and as a badge of office, not as an offense weapon to be used in attacking an enemy. They had much better weapons for that purpose, like the AK-47.
So they adopted a small, handy pistol that would be easily carried and would be at hand for situations like dealing with infiltrators or rebels. If an officer in, say, a company command post, sees someone in the wrong uniform come in the door, he is likely to have his PM at hand while his AK is in the corner.
Jim
Jim Watson
Member
The only really successful blowback service pistols were the Astra 400 and 600 in 9mm Largo and 9mm Para, respectively. They have fairly heavy slides, strong recoil springs, and strong mainsprings. It all adds up to a bigger gun than a Russky bigshot would want to carry around.
Walther tried twice and High Standard once to make blowback 9mm Paras but they couldn't cut it in competition with recoil operated pistols.
Walther tried twice and High Standard once to make blowback 9mm Paras but they couldn't cut it in competition with recoil operated pistols.
utoo/detail/?,
Are you serious? There's more to value than the basic system of operation...
By that logic an H&K VP70 and a Hi-Point 9mm should both be priced the same because they're both direct blowback and have poor triggers.
Are you serious? There's more to value than the basic system of operation...
By that logic an H&K VP70 and a Hi-Point 9mm should both be priced the same because they're both direct blowback and have poor triggers.
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