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Why the majority of semi-auto manufacturers stops at 45 ACP-40 S&W???

Discussion in 'Handguns: General Discussion' started by saturno_v, Jul 30, 2009.

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  1. saturno_v

    saturno_v Member

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    Basically if you want to go over the power level of 45-40 there is a big void...good luck to you...


    10 mm Auto is only widely available from Glock (Model 20 & 29), Kimber and Dan Wesson are mostly on special order at least in shops around Western WA, rarely you see one available on shelves.

    Some shops carry the EAA but....you know the issues about EAA and the Witness 10 mm in particular, so I won't go there....

    Here and there only occasionally you see some DE (357 Mag, 44 Mag or 50 AE) and even more rare some exotic calibers like the 45 Super or the 460 Rowland.

    Up to 45 and 40 the offering is limitless, every conceivable size, action, metal, polymer etc....


    On the revolver side, almost every shop carries at least some S&W 500 models, 357 and 44 Mag from every manufacturer are everywhere and the 454 is very common also


    So why the vast majority of semi auto ends at 45-40 power levels???

    Few semi-auto users want more power?? Are they wimpy?? :evil::D

    The 10 mm Auto is a fantastic high power compact caliber, perfect for light wood protection...

    In my opinion every gun lover should salivate over a true 10 mm load double stack pistol..the demand should be very strong to push more manufacturers into it.


    The revolver almost equivalent of that round, the 357 Mag, is everywhere....

    So what is the problem folks??? Some chauvinistic attitude toward a cartridge maybe perceived as foreigner?? It should not be so...after all the very popular 9 mm is a foreign cartridge!!! :D

    Why very few pistolas with more oomph than a 45 or a 40 in the market??

    Can someone solve the mistery for me??


    Regards
     
  2. ArmedBear

    ArmedBear Member

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    It's easier to make a revolver that balances well and doesn't blow itself apart with really hot rounds.

    Ever shoot a Desert Eagle? Nice shooter IMO. I really like shooting them. But they're expensive, heavy and huge.

    A nice Redhawk or 629 is cheaper, a better holster gun, and has a better reputation for reliability.
     
  3. saturno_v

    saturno_v Member

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    I agree on the extreme side of the power equation....however a 10 mm Auto is not a 44 Mag or a 50 AE...you can build very good pistols for it (for example the S&W 10x6 series)
     
  4. Japle

    Japle Member

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    I used to own a .357 and .44 AutoMag. I kick myself every day for selling them.

    My loads for the .357 were a 150 gr Sierra JHP at 1850 fps and a 90 gr Sierra 9mm JHP at 2495 fps. The 90 gr load was great on jackrabbits and coyotes. That bullet was designed for 1400-1500 fps and would expand on a raindrop.

    The .44 loads were a 180 gr JHP at 1860 fps and the 265 gr Hornady bullet designed for the .444 Marlin at 1510 fps. That load would shoot straight through a Mule deer from front to back. It wouldn't expand on the sidewalk.

    Having that kind of power in an 8-shot semi-auto was wonderful. Felt recoil was nothing compared to a hot-loaded revolver.

    I miss those guns. It's so sad .........
     
  5. Thingster

    Thingster Member

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    Look at the number of companies that used to market 10mm pistols, now look at the companies that do. The market demand just wasn't (isn't) there to support many manufacturers producing 10mm pistols.

    The other "hot" pistols are jsut too darn expensive for most people to consider.
     
  6. Acera

    Acera Member

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    Once they found out that their "girlie men" could not handle the 10mm, the FBI dropped it in favor of the 10mm light aka .40 S&W.

    With the trend to always having what the operators, agencies,and professionals use, people took it for granted that was the way to go.

    The 10mm is a very viable cartridge, and with some companies producing full power loads, it is even appealing to me.

    Also, it looks like the Vltor Bren 10 is about to be released. Time to go back to some Phil Collins music, white pants, fast boats, Ferrari's, and drug runners, LOL.
     
  7. rcmodel

    rcmodel Member in memoriam

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    There is an upper limit to how much power you can put in an autoloader and still get your hand around the grip. The 10mm is about it.

    There is also an upper limit to how much pressure you can contain with a short-recoil locked breach design.
    Again, the 10mm is about it.
    The Wildys & Desert Eagles have gas-operated rotary bolts for a reason!

    And given a choice, it seems 99 out of 100 new gun buyers will chose a gun that holds half a box of ammo in one mag over one that holds 6 or 7 of "the most powerful handgun in the world and will blow your head clean off" type cartridges.

    Spray & Pray is alive & well!

    The DE's and such are fun to play with and very accurate.
    But you darn sure wouldn't want to CCW one I betcha!

    rc
     
  8. Zoogster

    Zoogster Member

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    They are generally too large.

    Most semi-automatic pistols have the magazine inserted through the pistol grip. That means the round is limited to under a certain length for most of the population. The longer the cartridge the more ridiculous the grip must become to both contain the magazine and be thick enough to be durable.

    The action of most larger caliber semi-automatics requires the barrel to tilt and the slide to go rearward at least the length of the cartridge. So the longer the cartridge the more movement from the slide is required to reliably cycle rounds. The slide needs to go rearward more than the length of the longest cartridge and bullet combination in that caliber.
    The longer the cartridge the more gradual the barrel pivot angle will be when the slide breach locks and unlocks, or the barrel needs to be higher within the slide to compensate adding to the dimensions of the firearm.
    The breech lock needs a certain tilt angle of movement. To withstand even more powerful calibers you need even more metal locking up in a that action type. More metal locking up will require an even greater angle of barrel tilt to open and close or lock and unlock the breech.
    Yet the increased cartridge length as I explained already made the angle shallower unless the dimensions and height of the slide (or at least the opening for the barrel) are increased.
    So there is limits in John Brownings breech lock design if you want a firearm of reasonable dimensions.

    The Desert Eagle gets around most of those issues because it is gas operated and cycles more like a rifle than a pistol. But that adds weight, bulk, and more complexity to the firearm. It also means it is less reliable because it has a gas system that must be kept clean rather than relying on pure recoil.

    A pistol with a magazine outside the pistol grip is not limited by the size of the users hand, but then the shape of the pistol, storage, and ability to use standard holsters is changed. They also have a more sinister appearance, and as such were considered "Assault weapons" under the sunset federal bill and under the laws of some states.
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2009
  9. KSDeputy

    KSDeputy Member

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    I would guess that the .45acp is so popular, after 90 years, that more semi's are made for it. I own 8 Smith semis in .45acp. My sheriff's office went to Glock 40s&w after I retired. I don't anticipate buying either a Glock, or a .40s&w caliber gun. They gave me a new 4506 that had been to the range once, when I left. I keep it by the bed, also have another new one in the safe. I just believe in .45's.
     
  10. saturno_v

    saturno_v Member

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    Infact that is exactly my question...why there isn't more demand for 10 mm auto pistols....as many said already is the most powerful round a practical locked breech design can handle and it has obvious advantages compared to a 45 or a 40 in certain situations...

    I totally agree on the DE and similar..too bulky and not practical (heavy, gas operated design, etc...)
     
  11. ArmedBear

    ArmedBear Member

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    Maybe it's because people are swayed by marketing that makes 9mm sound like a .45, .40 sound like a rifle, and .45 sound like a cannon?

    If people aren't even looking for something more powerful, there won't be a market.
     
  12. rcmodel

    rcmodel Member in memoriam

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    Well, if you had the pleasure of shooting a Colt Delta using the first Norma 10mm ammo when they came out in 1987, you wouldn't need to ask.

    They were downright nasty powerful, and well more then the average shooter would be willing to put up with for fun at the range, or could shoot accurately.

    rc
     
  13. ArmedBear

    ArmedBear Member

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    BTW there have been other cartridges introduced since the 10mm. They show a definite trend.

    The .45 GAP and the .357 SIG, in different ways, are about trying to fit more power in less case length. As others have said, grip size matters.
     
  14. saturno_v

    saturno_v Member

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    Interesting theory but I do not think is entirely accurate...I see people interested and/or buying powerful revolvers (44 Mag & up) all the time in gun shops and shows...kids and older folks alike...gun ranges are full of them....but for some reason, in a semi-auto format everybody stops at 40-45!!!

    Yes and no.....45 ACP is incredibly popular and there is not much of a difference in grip size between a 45 ACP and a 10 mm Auto....the 45 GAP is basically non-existant and is going to die very soon I think unless Glock keep it alive for reasons of pride....
     
  15. Zoogster

    Zoogster Member

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    The .40S&W was designed through cost and politics from the 10mm Auto.

    The FBI did tests after a major failure in a gunfight to determine what the ideal cartridge would be. They arrived at the full power 10mm Auto loads.
    The gun they issued though only had springs setup for the .45 ACP the firearm was normaly chambered in.
    As a result the battering that resulted was tremendous, much more than it should have been with proper springs. That made the recoil seem much worse, and the reputation of the round was damaged.
    Many women could not even handle it with those 45 ACP springs. They threatened to sue for sexual discrimination because that gun was required to qualify and keep thier jobs.
    This is when women were new to the workforce many places, in the tough woman culture of the 80's while sexual discrimination suits were happening left and right.
    So the pressure from the sexual discrimination claim caused the FBI to begin to underload the 10mm Auto to what was .40S&W levels, or 10mm lite/ FBI lite which operated better with the improper .45ACP springs those guns were using.
    Of course that negated all the testing done that arrived at the full power 10mm Auto being the best round for the job. They went from the best round for the job to one that wouldn't get them sued, when all they needed to do was change the recoil springs.

    Gun companies realized they could use the much more common and cheaper 9mm pistol frames and still contain this new underloaded 10mm round since it no longer needed the powder capacity of the 10mm Auto case. So they could use the cheaper and more compact 9mm frames, rather than the robust 10mm or 45 ACP designs.
    The .40 S&W was born.

    So the 10mm Auto's image was tarnished because of the use of improper springs. The 40 S&W was born due to threats of sexual discrimination lawsuits, which resulting in underloaded rounds which manufactures realized could be used in existing 9mm frames by just shortening the cartridge length.

    So the .40 S&W has come to dominate law enforcement when the whole reason for the original adoption of the 10mm auto was because after extensive FBI tests it was determined to be the best for the job. While the reason for the adoption of the .40 S&W was political and profit based.
     
  16. Gryffydd

    Gryffydd Member

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    There's also the fact that most people carry auto pistols for use against 2 legged predators. For that, the .45 or .40 are "enough". Especially when you consider quick follow up shots and the risks of over penetration.
     
  17. ArmedBear

    ArmedBear Member

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    I seriously think that someone looking for a revolver isn't looking for a semiauto, and vice versa.

    The market overlap may be surprisingly minimal, on a gun-by-gun basis.

    Bingo.

    While I have a big .45 that I'd consider "mixed use", if I'm thinking 4-legged, I'm thinking 6-shooter.

    Hence, what I wrote above...
     
  18. saturno_v

    saturno_v Member

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    I agree with you in part.....


    The 10 mm Auto Auto market for semis should overlap with the 357 Mag in a revolver format (power wise)

    If you carry a 357 for light wildlife defense duty you should appreciate the opportunity to have 15+1 rounds instead of 6 (or 8 in some models)....yes I know that in case of attack you probably do not have the time to unload all that firepower still "psycologically" you have more firepower....and a semi-auto tend to be more compact than a revolver (at least in the 10 mm-357 comparison)
     
  19. Zoogster

    Zoogster Member

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    The 10mm Auto is essentially the .357 Magnum in an auto. The .357 had been used for many decades and developed a reputation as an excellent man stopper in Law Enforcement and civilian circles.
    From the 1930s until the adoption of the semi-auto in the 80s and 90s the .357 Magnum was the round.

    It would only make sense then that the 10mm Auto is essentially the .357 magnum in an auto. Similar bullet weights at similar velocities. The .357 cartridge is a little too long for a practical auto, so it is a little wider and shorter in the 10mm Auto to feed reliably from a practical size.
     
  20. Gryffydd

    Gryffydd Member

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    I would love to get a 10mm, but here's my problem.
    I already have my big revolvers if I ever decide to wander into bear country.
    I already have a 1911 in .45acp that is my primary carry gun.
    I'd like to have a 10mm that would work equally well for both. However, just as you listed there's a dearth of pistols chambered in it.
    If I get a 1911 in 10mm I'm only getting 1 more shot than an 8 shot 357. If I get a Glock 20, it doesn't fit my hands. The 20SF I can at least get a good grip on, but it's still a Glock. Nobody has ever accused them of great ergonomics. Then there's the rest that are too weak, too rare etc.

    If Springfield/HS could come out with a double stack .45ACP that fits even my small hands while matching the capacity of the Glock 21, they could do the same thing with the 10mm. If SOMEBODY would come out with a decent double stack 10mm I'd jump on it. It's the combination of .357 power with high capacity that would make it worthwhile compared to my current guns. And I think that's a situation a lot of people may be in.
     
  21. ArmedBear

    ArmedBear Member

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    I'm just saying it was introduced with that in mind, not that it succeeded. Note that the .45 ACP is incredibly popular in single-stack guns, and has a very real but limited market in double-stacks like the XD45 (which I have and like). I think the reason the GAP didn't become popular is because people with small hands also have small wrists, and may shy away from .45s.

    Yeah, but since I'm not an idiot, I opt for effectiveness over delusion.:) I'd guess that many trail carriers are of the same ilk. The deluded hikers are the hippies who don't like "violence" and wouldn't carry a gun, revolver or semiauto.

    .357 SIG doesn't come in wildlife-defense loads, anyway, even if I were to forego the .44. I don't load my .357 with 125 grain cop bullets on the trail, either. For "light" trail defense, the .45 has served well for a century and a quarter -- the additional bullet weight makes it a tad more useful against bigger critters, unless you use expanding bullets like some people might... And it carries 14, which will do.

    Really? Don't tell the Model 60 I sometimes pocket carry on the trail. It doesn't know that.:)

    One more thing... My trail guns get covered in fine dust in the Summer. With a revolver, I just wipe them off, and clean them well when they get truly dirty. A semiauto tends to collect that stuff in the oil more easily, and its function is impacted more by it.
     
  22. Gryffydd

    Gryffydd Member

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    And as much as I know Saturno hates the idea of a .45acp for wilderness carry, and as much as I'll admit the superiority of the 10mm, 230gr TCs at 1010fps (DoubleTap) is nothing to sneeze at up to Black Bear anyway, and beyond that the 10mm isn't acceptable either. Oh, and the 230gr .45 bullet has the same SD as a 180gr 10mm.
     
  23. MagnumDweeb

    MagnumDweeb Member

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    I own a first gen Glock 20, now the Glock 20C i just picked up a couple weeks ago, I keep telling myself I should get a Glock 29 but I have a lot of gun projects in the works.

    I labeled myself MagnumDweeb for a reason I LOVE MAGNUMS. I shot my first .44 Magnum, a Ruger SBH 7.5"(my grandpas) when I was 15 and fell in love with the experience. My first handgun was a Ruger Security Six .357 Magnum in 4". I own four snub nose .357 Magnums and yes I use magnum loads. I own three Redhawks 7.5",4", 5.5" in .44 Magnum and one .454 Casull in 7.5". I own four S&W Model 19s. And will eventually get a Ruger GP 100 4". I own two Ruger SBH in .44 magnum. But I also on four .45 ACP (Taurus PT 1911, Ruger 90(2 of them), and Ruger P345).

    I generally either carry a Glock 20 or a Ruger P345 in conjunction with a snub nose .357 magnum. .45 ACP is a heck of a cartridge if you can put in target and have a good load.

    You also got to remember that most folks don't want to feel pain or discomfort when they are shooting. My students will regularly joke when I'm shooting my magnums one handed like its easy. For some folks magnum calibers are just not what they are up for is all. I don't particularly blame them. I've been thinking of joining the high capacity 9mm bandwagon for CCW since I already own a Glock 19 and Taurus PT 92.

    When you add up expense and time needed to become a proficient shooter, it's just easier for some folks to stick with 9mm handguns that hold fifteen or more rounds.
     
  24. Acera

    Acera Member

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    But fo-tay sounds better in a rap song.


    Other news on the reintroduction of the Bren 10, I got an email from Vltor. They said check back after Christmas, but the target date for the release is 2010 SHOT show.
     
  25. ArmedBear

    ArmedBear Member

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    Exactly.

    And for anything bigger, I have a real gun anyway.:D

    Based on what, though?

    The .45 Colt was used for that, for a very long time, and worked well. See, I believe in heavy, penetrating bullets, because I've seen them kill big things. I'm sure the 10mm is just as good, and most likely more effective by a bit. That doesn't suddenly render the .45 useless. And neither one of them is a serious predator stopper.

    The real advantage the hi-cap gun really has is emergency signalling. High capacity won't matter worth a crap against an attacking predator. If you get off more than a few shots, it wasn't attacking.
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2009
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