Common and less common calibers that no longer have a real reason to exists anymore..

[Mags]

You should switch the 45 acp off your list and replace it with 40 S&W. 40 S&W does not have any more fps than a 9mm and does not have the "stopping power" of 45 ACP

 

[Oyeboten]

Any Cartridge that ever existed, deserves to exist still, for people to enjoy shooting those Arms that chamber it.

 

[saturno_v]

Published velocities are not always accurate. Some are pretty close and some are way off. You can argue "math says this one is better" all day long. Only time will tell if the .40 is as good as the .45. You cant argue with 100 years of the .45 getting the job done. If you want to you could add some more years to that with the effectiveness of the .45 colt. No other handgun cartridge can top that as of yet.

Never said a 45 is not an effective round...however my intention was not to transform this thread in a 40 Vs. 45 debate...really...so fortyfive lovers calm down and consider the thread for what it is..a tongue in cheek thing to have fun...chill out...read my humor at the end of my lines....

Yeah, except 40 S&W can't even push 200 grain bullets, not to mention 230s. 45 ACP also does the work at much lower pressures. Speer's factory 200 grain 45 ACP +P Gold Dot loading is within 50 fps over Cor-Bon's 200 grain JSP 10mm loading, again at significantly lower pressures. Good try though.

You are simply dreaming if you think that the Speer 200 grain 45 ACP +P can get even close to a real full SAAMI spec 10 mm load.....Double Tap 200 gr., SAAMI complaint, 1300 fps out of a 4.5" barrel Glock 20...as you said, nice try indeed.....

The 40 was never designed to push 230 gr. bullet....it does push 200 gr. nicely, basically at the same speed, or just a hair less, of your 45....or you do not believe reloading manuals either???

With the 40 I do get higher pressure (no issues if the gun is designed for it) but a smaller package and double the round count....something i would not sneeze at...

 

[Big Daddy Grim]

GRYF said it all totally agree

 

[hillbillydelux]

Never said a 45 is not an effective round...however my intention was not to transform this thread in a 40 Vs. 45 debate...really...so fortyfive lovers calm down and consider the thread for what it is..a tongue in cheek thing to have fun...chill out...read my humor at the end of my lines....

Yes but you decided to delete the 45acp in favor of the 40. Therefore you have insulted the 45 and will incurr the wrath of all diehard 45 fans. Calm I will not be toward anyone who makes such a comment. Joking or not. Its not funny.

 

[BlindJustice]

Double Tap Ammo offeringss
These are ALL Speer Gold Dot JHP
CUrrent offerings

.45 ACP ----- .40 S&W -- 10MM Auto
185 gr 155 gr. 155 gr.
1225 fps 1,275 fps 1,475 fps
616 ft lbs 60 ft. lbs 750 ft lbs

200 gr. 165 gr. 165 gr.
1125 fps 1,200 fps 1,400 fps
562 Ft lbs 528 fl lbs 718 ft lbs

230 gr. 180 gr. 180 gr.
1,010 fps 1,100 fps 1,300 fps
521 ft lbs 484 ft lbs 676 ft lbs

I think they used a full size Glock 4.4" Bbl. Len
for the .40 cal cartrdiges above, the .45 was 5"

How many 5" Bbl. .40 S&W Platform models do you find
compared to so many that are shorter since they're
built for 9mm size magazine wells?

R-

 

[saturno_v]

How many 5" Bbl. .40 S&W Platform models do you find
compared to so many that are shorter since they're
built for 9mm size magazine wells?

The Beretta 96 is 5" as the same as several Taurus full size models (The PT and others) and probably there are others.

Same for the 45 ACP....not many 5" other than the 1911 style...

Both cartridges are commonly found at 4-4.5"

 

[BlindJustice]

My 625 is a 5" Bbl.

Arent' Blocks with 4.5" Bbl. known to give higher velocity
due to the polygonal rifling?

My point of the chart was compare the
heavy bullet for a .45 to the heavy for a .40
230 to 180
250 to 200
185 to 165
165 to 155 or 135

I will next post equal barrel lengths

Seems an undercurrent here of you just
wanting all other cartrdges haven't chosen to
trash them imho.

Randall - retired and I have the time, and it's
getting hot finally - heck it must be summer I
bought popscicles today.

 

[21bubba]

.357 Sig

Why do you suppose people with .40 caliber guns always want to convert to .357sig? Could it be superior performance ?

If anything should disappear its .40 cal.

I love my .357 mag, but my .357sig gives me 11 rounds of like performance.

 

[ohio1221]

More flawed logic in the OP than I have time to critique.

 

[Jason_G]

Saturno V,

About the .40 S&W vs .45 ACP, you said that .40 produces more energy:

I do not dispute personal preferences but from a purely energy figures, "cold" numbers", it is true.

You might be able to find manufactured ammo where ft-lbs of energy for the .40 is higher than for another loading in .45, but you also need to keep in mind that ft-lbs of energy is about one of the most useless pieces of data there is for comparing loads among differing calibers. There are too many other more important factors that you are overlooking, like penetration, bullet mass, etc., etc. Energy quotes are helpful when comparing loads within a caliber, or for different calibers that have the same projectile weight, but you aren't really making that sort of comparison here, since the .40 is almost always lighter than the .45 ACP.


Jason

 

[BlindJustice]

I agree with the last post...

O.P. you might consider the Several million platforms
of .45 ACP as a reason for it's existence, sheeish

check out

Ballistics by the Inch

Some guys with a bunch of ammo and a T/C Contender cut the barrel down by one inch increments
chronographed from 18" Len. down to 2" Len.

http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/results.html

Extracting some of the data as examples:

----- .40 S&W ---- .45 ACP
----- - Federal ----- Federal
----- Hydra Shok --- Hydra SHok
-----180 gr. JHP---- 230 gr. JHP
--5" -- 1047 ------- 895
- 4" --- 1016 ------- 865
- 3" ---- 962 -------- 787

----- .40 S&W ---- .45 ACP
----- - CorBon ----- CorBon l
-----165 gr. JHP---- 200 gr. JHP
--5" -- 1225 ------- 1149
- 4" --- 1164 -------- 1109
- 3" --- 1085 --------- 999

I'll keep the momentum of the 230 gr. .45 ACP

If I wanted to go with a lightweight .40
I'll put my .400 COrBon barrel in the 1911
155 gr. Speer Gold DOt @ 1400 FPS

my beer is getting warm

but do note the velocity loss for .357 Mag in
the tables for Bbl. len. Less than 4" down to 2"

Randall

 

[saturno_v]

More flawed logic in the OP than I have time to critique.

I'm pretty sure you would add a lot of "logic" in here...reasoning like "the number 45 is better", "it was used by the GI", momentum (ahh the dear momentum!!!), "Stopping power" (nobody really knows what it is) and stuff like that ....I can't wait to read it....

There are too many other more important factors that you are overlooking, like penetration, bullet mass, etc., etc. Energy quotes are helpful when comparing loads within a caliber, or for different calibers that have the same projectile weight, but you aren't really making that sort of comparison here, since the .40 is almost always lighter than the .45 ACP.

Ohh yes I consider all these factors...a 180 gr. .40 slug has the same SD of a 230 gr. 45 slug so, assuming the same bullet construction, the 40 will penetrate more because of its reduced frontal area..and it has been demonstrated against light barriers...

I'll keep the momentum of the 230 gr. .45 ACP

Momentum alone doesn't mean nothing...big bullets proponents will never ever understand that unfortunately...

By the way, the enormously overhwhelming adoption of the .40 among LE agencies versus the insignificant share of the 45 will mean something to you I hope....

Blind Justice

So what is your point?? I agree, one inch of less barrel length can give you between 40 and 80 less fps in a 40 S&W as your data table demonstrate...exactly what I was saying...

 

[.38 Special]

...a 180 gr. .40 slug has the same SD of a 230 gr. 45 slug so, assuming the same bullet construction, the 40 will penetrate more because of its reduced frontal area...

Translation: "I have no idea what sectional density means".

 

[Dimis]

hahahahahahaha

.38
.45ACP
.45LC

these are THE three that will never die EVER seriously more people shoot these three calibers or at least own firearms in these calibers or in the case of .38 people shoot alot of this out of there .357s than youd think

i like alot of cartridges and dont really like it when some of them fail but there are certain things that will never go away and id say with the addition of .357Mag and the three mentioned above are definatly the ones to stay

 

[BlindJustice]

You say you don't want to start a flame war but
all of your statements from the first to all of your responses
are exactly aimed toward that aim.

DOne with this POS thread....

Randall

 

[ugaarguy]

Momentum alone doesn't mean nothing...big bullets proponents will never ever understand that unfortunately...

Launch Winchester's ballistic comparison tool here - http://www.winchester.com/lawenforcement/testing/testing.aspx# - and tell me momentum means nothing. All three .45 ACP loadings meet or exceed FBI minimum penetration against every barrier, and do so with massive expansion at very moderate velocities. The two .40 S&W bonded loadings best the 45s in penetration on a couple barriers, but when they do the expansion isn't there. Those 40 S&W loads are also pushing the bullets at significantly higher velocities.

Do it with momentum, or do it with velocity. I don't care what works for you. Just don't tell me my choice is meaningless. .45 ACP runs at lower pressure, is less critical of case head support, has longer brass life, and offers lower recoil when compared to .40 S&W. I get faster and more accurate shots using a 1911 in .45 ACP than I do using any firearm in .40 S&W. If you're faster and more accurate with something in .40 S&W then by all means use it - just don't tell me my choice isn't valid since it doesn't work for you.

I'm also a 10mm Auto fan, which has renewed my interest in .40 S&W. However, that doesn't make me believe for a second that .45 ACP is obsolete. In fact, it's made me appreciate even more what the .45 ACP does at such modest pressures.

 

[saturno_v]

I never said your choise was not valid.

And I did nto want to start a flame war but to gather other's impression..we can comment on other calibers too.

I just said that IMHO and it just my opinion, the 40 S&W is a more logic choiuce compared to the 45 ACP because of the form factor and the significantl;y increased magazine capacity..again FOR ME....

Launch Winchester's ballistic comparison tool here - http://www.winchester.com/lawenforce.../testing.aspx# - and tell me momentum means nothing. All three .45 ACP loadings meet or exceed FBI minimum penetration against every barrier, and do so with massive expansion at very moderate velocities. The two .40 S&W bonded loadings best the 45s in penetration on a couple barriers, but when they do the expansion isn't there. Those 40 S&W loads are also pushing the bullets at significantly higher velocities.

All the 40 loadings best the 45 loadings (included the +P) with the same bullet construction in penetration almost everywhere except for couple of cases...in many istances they penetrate A LOT better...yes they expand less but they start with a smaller diameter to begin with...from that comparison I do nto understand where you get the superior stopping power of the 45....

If you really think that there are ANY situation where a 40 would not stop an assailant where the 45 would I stop right here and avoid wasting my time...I take few more inches of penetration over 10% of an inch more expansion anytime of the day

 

[Gryffydd]

Not really...no ammo company load for the 357, no matter how weak, is remotely close to a 9 mm....

9mm +p defensive ammo runs 124@1250+ .357 defensive ammo runs 125@1400+. That's not that much of a difference. It's sure a far cry from 125gr loads from BB, Double Tap, or hand loads which push closer 1700fps or more. Relatively speaking those 9mm loads are only a bit behind the .357 loads.

180 gr.

45 ACP: 1047 fps

40 S&W: 1159

That .40 S&W load is for Hornady XTPs. The .45 ACP load is for Lead Flat Points.

155 gr.

45 ACP: 1135 fps

40 S&W: 1283 fps

And that data is XTP for the .40 and Cast LSWC for the .45
Try comparing apples to apples next time. Nice try though. Did you even pay any attention to the actual loads or were you so excited you thought you'd proven your point you didn't even notice? Oh, and if you looked at +P Hodgdon data how come you didn't list any of it? Oh, and where exactly is the +P data from Hodgdon's site for the .45acp, exactly?

You are simply dreaming if you think that the Speer 200 grain 45 ACP +P can get even close to a real full SAAMI spec 10 mm load

A. That's not what he said. B. You're dreaming if you think the .40 S&W can get anywhere close to the .45 in 200gr loads.

I just said that IMHO and it just my opinion, the 40 S&W is a more logic choiuce compared to the 45 ACP because of the form factor and the significantl;y increased magazine capacity..again FOR ME....

Don't try and back track now. What you said was that by the cold, hard numbers the .40 S&W was MORE powerful than the 45acp. No one is arguing about capacity or form factor. This was a blatantly false statement, not a statement of personal preference.

 

[doc2rn]

I like my .357 sig G32, and have watched other guys swap out their .40 cal uppers for .357 sig uppers. Why do you think that is? Oh and I can find ammo for the sig anywhere cant say the same for the 40

 

[Gryffydd]

Oh and I can find ammo for the sig anywhere cant say the same for the 40

That's cause nobody's buying 357 sig ammo

 

[saturno_v]

150 fps, in my book is still a very considerable difference...and we are talking a +P 9 mm and an extremely weak 357 in a non optimal bullet weight (125 gr.) for that cartridge.

In my comparison between the Hodgdon 155 gr. and 180 gr. for both the 45 ACP and the 40 S&W that is the bullet style available on the site, it's not my fault...now we make new excuses??...it does not make much difference anyway.

The +P loads for the 45 ACP in the Hodgdon reloading data center are included in the 45 ACP table as I personally verified by the phone with the technician when I was considering buying a 45....check the site yourself.

Don't try and back track now. What you said was that by the cold, hard numbers the .40 S&W was MORE powerful than the 45acp. No one is arguing about capacity or form factor. This was a blatantly false statement, not a statement of personal preference.

I stand by my statement fully....on average, the vast majority of 40 loads are more powerful than the 45 ACP...there are only few exceptions where some +P loads can equal and maybe, maybe, best the 40 by few ft/lb (still with a 1/2-1 inch or so of different barrel length in the published numbers so it is all to be verified...)

About the 10 mm Auto the guy did indeed imply that that 45 ACP +P Speer load could get only 50 fps short of a Corbon load, as the Corbon were a full SAAMI specs 10 mm...dream on...


By the way, I did talk with one of my range buddy one hour ago and he gets 1133 fps average with his Glock 22 with the 200 gr. 40 S&W Double Tap (SAAMI complaint)....and basically same results either with the 200 gr. FMJ FP or 200 gr. WFNGC....so not much difference with different bullet style...he told me to tell you to try to do that with a 45....

I'm out with this...I hoped I would not ignite such fire but evidently the fortyfive aficionados are hot heads!!!

 

[C-grunt]

If you think the .38 needs to go, try shooting your "full spec" .357 mags out of a 13oz J Frame.

The .45 Colt offers an excellent handgun hunting cartridge with moderate recoil.

Also your never going to get a 9mm into the size of a gun you can get .25, .32 or a .380.

 

[saturno_v]

Also your never going to get a 9mm into the size of a gun you can get .25, .32 or a .380.

Infact I said that the 380 has limited usefulness when extreme concealment is required.....the 25 or 32 instead, IMHO, can rest in peace.

Personally I use my Kel-Tec P-11 9 mm even in my business attire or very casual summer clothing....I never had any need for something smaller than that...The PF-9 is even slimmer and still in 9 mm....and +P rated to boot...

 

[C-grunt]

But its still bigger than a P32.