Common and less common calibers that no longer have a real reason to exists anymore..

[LeverGunJunkie]

While it's a lovely and rational discussion, lovely and rational discussions about what "should be" available in the market are for socialists. If "central planning" worked, the world would be a socialist/communist paradise by now. It was a very rational-seeming economic model - it just so happens that chaos theory (capitalism) works better

Well said Dex...surprisingly cogent points in this 'debate'.

 

[Gryffydd]

With all the ballistics research you've been spouting off,

I've seen precious little of that from him!

While it's a lovely and rational discussion, lovely and rational discussions about what "should be" available in the market are for socialists.

Let's see here...what was it I said about that earlier?

Natural Selection works on calibers. The ones that no longer offer something...die. The rest stay, for one reason or another. Just because one does not recognize or appreciate that reason doesn't make it invalid. If it's still being made, it's still being sold. If it's still being sold, it's still being used. If it's still being used, it has a reason for being.

our economy is as centrally planned as it could be....the mere existence of a central bank that "decide" what is the "right" amount of money to inject in the system and try to pick up the "right" interest rate for us mere mortal is the very essence of a centrally planned economy with a veneer of free market for the little people.

Well we agree on something.

 

[rcmodel]

saturno_v
Your logic seems to be if it is no good for SD, it is no good period.
You are wrong.

The only one of your choices I agree with is the .45 GAP.

There was no good reason for it in the first place, and I imagine it will take it's own life before too many more years.

Lots of us enjoy handgun hunting, target shooting at 25 & 50 yards, and shooting classic old weapons like the Baby Browning .25 ACP and Colt SAA .32-20.

rc

 

[saturno_v]

Gryffydd

Whatever....do you really believe the 45 is more effective and powerful than a 40?? If yes I stop right here


One inch of barrel difference can bring more than 50 fps as anothe poster reported a web page with some test..

Yes that XD has 13 rounds...I guess what is the grip size of that thing...and it is only one model.

 

[earlthegoat2]

Long story short they wouldnt make it if there wasnt a demand for it and there will always be a demand for it unless we play dictator and round up all the guns that are firing those rounds that we have ethnically cleansed from our ammo shelves. Also I blame modern firearm and ammo manufacturers and their incessant need to reinvent the wheel with "new" and "improved" cartridges. Ruger, Marlin, and Hornady are the primary culprits. Undoubtedly their research has done more good than harm though. At the same time though this has to be done to bring about progress in what has become a traditionally stubborn to change industry.

I like to quote myself.

 

[Gryffydd]

Oh, and I just looked at Winchester's Ranger series. They only have the .45 in 230gr, but it produces 495 lbft, while the best any of their .40 loads manages is 467...

 

[Gryffydd]

Whatever....do you really believe the 45 is more effective and powerful than a 40?? If yes I stop right here

Define Powerful. More effective? Definitely not. More powerful--quite likely, based on all those cold, hard numbers I've been posting.

One inch of barrel difference can bring more than 50 fps as anothe poster reported a web page with some test..

Sometimes it makes a bit more than 50, sometimes it makes a bit less than 50. It rarely makes 100 or more, which is the spread you're dealing with. Go look at ballistics by the inch if you want. They only have ONE load out of all the ones tested for both the 40 and the 45 that gained 103fps between 4 and 5. Most were 50fps or less.
Edit...since you find fact finding so tiring, here's the link
http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/results.html

Yess that XD has 13 rounds...I guess what is the grip size of that thing...and it is only one model.

Have you ever held one? I could never use a Glock 20 or 21 with my hands, but the XD 45 is every bit as comfortable as their 9 and 40 models. And it only takes one model to make you wrong

as anothe poster reported a web page with some test..

Whoa, slow down there. Try not to overwhelm me with details.

 

[Dex Sinister]

This country has almost always been free market and capitalist for the common man and socialist for the rich...remember that...

Oh, I absolutely agree with your econo-political points. However segments of the market - like available calibers discussed here - are still capitalist, thus relevant.

Dex

 

[BlindJustice]

youse guyz still at it?

Heck I don't even dislike the .40 S&W, I shot one for the first
time 2 weeks ago. S&W M&P I liked it for the trigger, grip ergos
and better sights than my shooting buddy's G19. Actually
considered a Compact model until I found they also offer it in
.45 ACP. I just happen to have plenty of .45 ACP in hand and
not ready to commit to stocking another cartrdige

if a few ft lbs of kinetic energy is the yardstick of the O.P.
it's not false assumptions, it's false conclusions.

To each their own....

Anybody know a source for .40 S&W shotshells?

Randall

 

[sm]

My take:

Everything we need as far as firearms and calibers was available by 1935.
1955 if one chooses to include the .44 magnum

The .22 short is one, if not the, oldest cartridge we have, and it is still being used, and still proving itself.

i.e. Night hunting is allowed in some places for various game, and one I am familiar with is raccoon hunting, where one is restricted to .22 short.

Another aspect we responsible firearm owners have is preserving history so we can pass forward to future generations.

i.e. Velo Dog.
Last time I looked, Fiocchi still made some ammo for this firearm.

Then we have something else, one cannot put monetary value on, and that being Sentiment.
Family heirlooms or those passed down to close friends, are valuable beyond dollars and cents.
You cannot put a dollar value on memories, of people, places and things, you cannot.

Maybe it is only once a year a older firearm is carefully brought out, and one round is fired, out of memory, and respect, still these folks have that right.

We often get caught up in the latest and greatest, and wrinkle our noses at the past.

However, when there is no power, no new technology, the number two pencil, sharpened by a pocketknife , which was sharpened freehand , will still write on a scrap of paper, no matter where.
Be this up in space, in a hot and humid enviroment, or one with sub zero temps.

The old manual typewriter will still type a letter, address an envelope, and with postage stamp will still allow for communications with another.

Sometimes I wonder, if we are progressing forward or progressing backwards?

 

[saturno_v]

Gryffydd


The following are the strongest loads, energy wise, you can possibly find in the market for the 2 calibers, at least as far as the brands I know (same bullet style)...+P SAAMI specs for the 45 ACP and SAAMI specs for the 40.


Double Tap

40, 155 gr, 590 ft/lb out of a 4.5" barrel

45 185 gr. 616 ft/lb out of a 5" barrel

26 ft/lb of advantage for the 45 ACP, longer barrel for the 45 and higher SD for the 40


CORBON

40 , 135 gr. 526 ft/lb out of a 4" barrel

45, 165 gr. 573 ft/lb out of a 5" barrel

47 ft/lb of advantage for the 45 out of a 1 inch longer barrel...SD advantage for the 40


Buffalo Bore

40, 155 gr. 582 ft/lb out of a 4.5" barrel

45, 185 gr., 543 ft/lb out of a 5" barrel

39 ft/lb of advantage for the 40 with a shorter barrel (1/2 inch) and better SD


On a side note this is what Massad Ayoob wrote of the .40 135gr defensive ammo


"The Coroner I interviewed said the wound apeared to be made by a much larger weapon and that at first he thought it may have been from a rifle."

From 5th edition of The Gun Digest book of Combat Handgunnery.

 

[saturno_v]

Oh, I absolutely agree with your econo-political points. However segments of the market - like available calibers discussed here - are still capitalist, thus relevant.

Yes, SOME segment of the market...not many...

 

[dom1104]

"Disclaimer- I didnt read any of the responses yet"

But you are TOTALLY going to catch it saying the 45 LC is outmoded.

People LOVE that cartridge.

 

[Gryffydd]

Thanks for reposting everything I already posted up above. The point stands that you're not likely to bridge the 100fps gap in just 1" of barrel. (or a 1/2" difference in the case of DT) And until you beat the 616 lb/ft from the double tap load, the 582lb/ft BB load doesn't mean anything
Funny how you can't find any loads for the "more powerful" .40 that produce more energy than the .45acp.

 

[saturno_v]

Thanks for reposting everything I already posted up above.

So what is your conclusion??? That the 45 is more powerful or more effective??

I forgot another point on the .40 camp...on average,, ammo cost a bit less (at least during the good old times...)

 

[kentucky bucky]

Don't want to start a flame war.........RIGHT! Why didn't you just post "ALL GUNS SUCK".....????







ps...Take your flaming paws off my .41 Mag.

 

[saturno_v]

Addendum

Double tap 135 gr. can reach 606 ft/lb out of a 4.5" barrel (versus the already mentioned 616 ft/lb for the 45 185 gr. out of a 5" barrel) but is has a slightly worse SD.

 

[Gryffydd]

So what is your conclusion??? That the 45 is more powerful or more effective??

I already told you. More effective? No. More powerful? Technically, yes. Only slightly...but yes.
Oh yes, and let me know when you can get the .40 to expand to .88 inches or more

 

[saturno_v]

Funny how you can't find any loads for the "more powerful" .40 that produce more energy than the .45acp.

I posted many of them...and you posted yours...you "forced" me into a comparison of different brands in the same bullet weight, which for the reasons I stated before is not how the two rounds should be compared....go to th emost common ammo brands, Winchester, Federal, Remigton and you will find that the vast majority of 155 gr. loads in 40 are more powerful than any 45 ACP they have....go ahead...

I already conceded that the 2 rounds are equivalent....you really think 10-20 less ft/lb with a worse SD are going to make a difference in effectiveness????

Yes probably with the same barrel length that minuscole gap would be filled and then maybe even some...

Would be interesting to test a Beretta 96 in 40 or a Taurus PT which have 5" barrels....

Oh yes, and let me know when you can get the .40 to expand to .86 inches or more

ANd you let me know where you can find a 45 penetrating as far as a 40...

 

[ijosef]

We can't get rid of the .25ACP. How else are people going to load their $50 Raven Arms Saturday Night Specials?

 

[Gryffydd]

Edit..
Never mind this is getting stupid.

 

[BlindJustice]

The silly thing is the O.P. never ansswers that the
numbers out of a GLock 4.5" Bbl. is polygonal rifling and
gives higher velocity than standard.


Never said anything about the .22 32 gr. hyper velocity
round in rimfire did he?

If you're relating effectiveness to kinetic energy
you've soiled your cred. dude

R-

 

[saturno_v]

No..hold on here....what I said at the beginning was that in maqny cases (taking several manufacturers) the 40 has more energy than a 45....and this regardless of bullet weight...and that is absolutely true (go and check the numbers for the 155 gr. 40 from the major ammo manufacturers) then you wanted to compare the same bullet weight which is unfair because at the bullet weight where the 45 shines the 40 start to get out of steam.

Yes in the premium ammo arena. the absolute winner, as far as we know is the DT that can reach 616 ft/lb where the 40 stops at 10-20 ft/lb short (with a shorter barrel)

And we never talked about penetration.....10% expansion is not going to mean nothing in a human size target...

 

[texas bulldog]

guys, he just thinks we ought to eliminate some of the most popular calibers of all time. calm down...no big deal. i mean, no honest man needs anything other than 9mm, .40 or .357. seriously...45LC is only important to the thousands and thousands of people who participate in cowboy action shooting. and .45 ACP and .38 special are only two of the most popular rounds in the history of handguns. no big deal, right?

 

[Gryffydd]

And we never talked about penetration.....10% expansion is not going to mean nothing in a human size target..

And since they both penetrate well over 12", the difference there is negligible too.

what I said at the beginning was that in maqny cases (taking several manufacturers) the 40 has more energy than a 45

Hmm...let's go look.

the vast majority of 40 loads are more powerful than the 45 ACP

Hmm. Ok.

at the bullet weight where the 45 shines the 40 start to get out of steam.

Exactly why I like it