Why was 7.62 a standard caliber during WWII?

Status
Not open for further replies.

FIVETWOSEVEN

Member
Joined
Aug 28, 2009
Messages
5,146
Many of the countries involved in WWII excluding germany and france I believe, used weapons that were 7.62 caliber. Russia had their Rifles, submachine guns, and their handguns in .30. England had their rifles and the bren machine gun in .30, America had the M1 garand, the browning M1919 and the M1 carbine in .30 cal.

How come it was a standard caliber during that time period? (Please don't bite my head off if the .303 isn't 7.62.)
 
And the Japs used 7.7mm = ~.311

Here's a couple questions to answer your question.

What was the average diameter of the standard service rifle projectile in WW1?

What was the average diameter of the standard service rifle projectile in Korea?
 
Now lets take it back to the Civil War ear, standard diameter?

Napoleonic Wars?

Revolutionary War?
 
The above questions will get better answers on forums that expressly deal with older military rifles. the Austrian-Hungarian empire, turks, and the Germans in WWI use several different 8 mm rifles. The italians I think were using the 6.5 as well as several other countries. The french I believe still had a lot of 8 mm lebel caliber weapons. Spain was probably using either the 7 mm or 8 mm mauser calibers.
here are some questions for you. how did .31, .36 and .44 cap and ball revolvers become .32, 38, and 45 caliber revolvers?
 
Last edited:
how did .31, .36 and .44 cap and ball revolvers become .32, 38, and 45 caliber revolvers?
The way caliber was measured changed in some instances. Distance between opposite lands produces a different result than distance between opposite grooves.

Also, different ways for the bullet to engage the rifling creates different measurements. A "heel" bullet will be of a different caliber than a similar bullet seated primarily inside the case.
 
The above questions will get better answers on forums that expressly deal with older military rifles.
I was assuming that most people would not have to look the exact answers to be able to observe a trend :rolleyes:
 
Well Bwana John what I have discovered is that some forums are better than others for certain subjects. For combat I have one forum that I use, for historical information there are two others that I use, for repair of AK weapons there is another that i go to, for casting there is another, etc. I read this one on occasion, but the moderators on this one end up chasing me away. This is the first time I have visited this site in some time. This site is good for updates on 2nd amendment issues for example.
 
They were all 'three-line' rifles, which was a standard then.

Also, the thought there was that it was the best overall caliber. A nice even number on the machines (relatively), and the idea was to kill an enemy right then and there; 'two-line' wouldn't hurt them enough, 'four-line' wouldn't have the velocity.

In a large part, I think it's because 1) .30-caliber rifles of sorts were already common, and it was easy enough to figure which round worked best and 2) especially in Russia's case, keeping everything .30 means you could run off more with fewer machines.

Rumor that I've heard, is that Russia would run off blanks as long as their machines would make, then cut it to whatever length they needed for an M44 for Ivan, a 91/30 for Boris, a PPSH for Ivan's cousin Ivan...
 
Rumor that I've heard, is that Russia would run off blanks as long as their machines would make, then cut it to whatever length they needed for an M44 for Ivan, a 91/30 for Boris, a PPSH for Ivan's cousin Ivan...

Not only that, isn't the PPSh's barrel half the lench of the M91/30's?
 
To take a guess, and it's only a guess, 30 cal is a pretty good balance of something small enough to have good balistics and large enough for human sized targets. Probably cost is also a factor there as well. Just guesses though.
 
527; Even though these calibers were called 7.62 there are variations up to 4 thousands or so. It seems to me that .30 caliber was probably a pretty efficent bore for the powder and manufacturing process at the time. It has a wide range of bullet weights that work well. Military requirements change over time and engineering changes to meet the new requirements but efficient equipment seems to stay in style for a long time. I really don't understand some of these posts that don't just try to answer in a paragraph or so instead of being cute.
 
The whole roughly .30 Caliber thing got going heavy in the 1890s with just about all Country's Militarys and Arms developers.


Ammo weighed less...with Smokeless, velocities could be high for fairly flat trajectories and hard hitting, arms themselves could be lighter, and with shorter Barrels...


It was what everyone got into and stayed with for a long time.


By WWII the craze/fad/de-rigeur/preference was already half a Century old.
 
OK, now that we have seen how projectile diameter has changed over time, how does velocity change over that same time?
Has the mass of the projectile changed with the change in diameter?

What is the relationship between diameter, mass, and velocity when trying to achieve a acceptable level of fatal energy?

We could also compare the change in the ability of materials to contain the pressures necessary to achieve higher velocitys but i don't wanna get too cute. ;)
 
I had never thought of it until now, but it is interesting that all the major powers, with disparate geographical locations and conflicting ideologies, each adopted a .30-ish caliber.
 
The name of the game to the military is lethality - how good is a rifle for killing? The answer, except when explosive projectiles are involved, is in momentum of the projectile, which is bullet mass times bullet velocity.

With early black powder, there was not enough pressure generated to get high velocity, so the choice was to use a heavy (thus large diameter) bullet. Bullet diameters of 3/4 inch (e.g., the Brown Bess) were common.

As powders improved, higher velocity could be achieved and lighter bullets became as lethal as the earlier big bullets. By the U.S. (un)Civil War, the standard caliber was .58 or thereabouts. This shortly went down to about .45 caliber or its metric equivalent of about 11mm. Around 1900, smokeless powder, with its higher pressure, allowed for bullets as small as 6mm/.24 caliber to be considered lethal enough if high enough velocity could be achieved.

Many armed forces, including the U.S. Navy, purchased 6mm and 6.5mm rifles, mostly because of weight savings and in many cases because their soldiers were of small stature. But those cartridges were not able to gain enough velocity with the powders of the day to achieve the desired lethality, and most of the armies that had gone to 6.5 and smaller went back up the scale, or tried to, to a bullet of around .30/8mm.

That turned out to be close to the ideal. Adequate velocity and bullet weight for good lethality and the penetration of defenses like logs and of that new invention, the automobile.

Arising out of the last days of WWII, there then came a demand for faster firing weapons, selective fire rifles which were given the collective name "assault rifles" (from the German "Sturmgewehr"). But these presented a problem when full power ammunition (as then understood) was tried. The recoil was excessive and the rifles were simply uncontrollable in full auto fire.

Given the alternative of being restricted to semi-automatic fire or again reducing the rifle caliber or power, armies chose the latter approach. Today, most military rifles are chambered for one of two medium power cartridges, the 7.62x39 or the 5.56 NATO. But the same problem faced by (among others) the Japanese and the Italians, once again rears its head. The light, low recoil cartridge, mainly the 5.56, has proven lethal enough as a pure anti-personnel weapon, but its light bullet fails in penetration of defenses. So, back to the future with something like the 6.8? Who knows, but it all sounds familiar somehow.

Jim
 
Remember, the Japanese started WW II with 6.5mm and upgunned to 7.7 after hostilities were already under way. They carried on with a mix of smallarms.
The Italians started out with a 6.5 and tried to upgun to 7.35 but backed down, converted some guns, sold others, warehoused others, so as to not have to supply two calibers.
Other users of smallbores were not major combatants.
 
One interesting point. After the adoption of the Krag rifle by the U.S., a reporter asked the officer who picked .30 inch for the caliber why he selected that size. The newsman expected some esoteric discourse on bullet weight, rifling twist, or the like. The officer (I used to know his name) responded that "it seemed like a nice round number."

And thus was set the U.S. military caliber for the next 70 years.

Jim
 
Many of the countries involved in WWII excluding germany and france I believe, used weapons that were 7.62 caliber. Russia had their Rifles, submachine guns, and their handguns in .30. England had their rifles and the bren machine gun in .30, America had the M1 garand, the browning M1919 and the M1 carbine in .30 cal.

How come it was a standard caliber during that time period? (Please don't bite my head off if the .303 isn't 7.62.)

The french 7.5x54MAS round is actually the only other non US service cartridge to take part in wwII that fired .308" bullets or " true 30 caliber" as we view it.

an interesting footnote is the 7.35 Carcano round fired .300" projectiles
 
I'm just guessing, but it might have also had a little bit to do with countries simply trying to "keep up with the joneses" so to speak. Whoever could shoot farther during the late 1800s, early 1900s seemed to have a pretty big advantage with the tactics employed during that era, so who wanted to give that up? All of those cartridges were capable to about 1000 yards and my guess is that a country felt that without that ability, they were somehow disadvantaged. They probably landed on the 30ish caliber because it was the best cartridge for arming a large amount of infantry using primarily iron sights. Just like the U.S. did with switching from the 30-40, to the 30-03, then finally landing on the 30-06.

It also doesn't seem limited to cartridges. Our Navy used battleships, that were shown to be less than effective during WWII, during the nuclear era of the Cold War. I bet it was more because we had read in textbooks that empires cannot survive without them, and were too afraid of Russians having something that we did not, than because they were effective.

It seems that only when newer, or different tactics are used, then people start to adjust and more innovative and unique technologies come out of it. Right now it seems that most guns are 30 round, rotating bolt, gas operated, small caliber high velocity rifles. I'd bet in 40 years, we will see a change in that as well, and I doubt it will be easy to predict.
 
when the military was using the springfield 1903 hence 30-03 or 30-40krag. it was actually behind in its time so the us military was out to improve it after learning in ww1 that are enemies far out classed us in machine guns for cover fire which was a big deal to are military tatics since there was no mortars for mortar barrages yet. So they came up with the 30-06 round. So quickly they modified the 1903 springfield rifle to take this round making the m1906 hence 30-06, 30=cal. and 06=1906 year,by just rechambering them instead of building new rifles, which highly improved there range upto 1000-1100 yd gun and making are machine guns higihly more efficent. So atleast are Goverment knows a good thing when they see it. it always has to do with money and conviance.

Hope this was helpful.

P.S. the 7.62 Nato/308 round wasn't invented until 1952 and didn't adopt nato til 2 years later.
 
Last edited:
when the military was using the springfield 1903 hence 30-03 or 30-40krag. it was actually behind in its time so the us military was out to improve it after learning in ww1 that are enemies far out classed us in machine guns for cover fire which was a big deal to are military tatics since there was no mortars for mortar barrages yet. So they came up with the 30-06 round. So quickly they modified the 1903 springfield rifle to take this round making the m1906 hence 30-06, 30=cal. and 06=1906 year,by just rechambering them instead of building new rifles, which highly improved there range upto 1000-1100 yd gun and making are machine guns higihly more efficent. So atleast are Goverment knows a good thing when they see it. it always has to do with money and conviance.

Hope this was helpful.

The .30-06 M1 round was created/adopted before WWI (1914-1918). The heavier-projectile .30-06 M2 round was created after WWI to enhance long-range effectiveness of MGs.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top