Why long range .30 calibers in WWI?

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Has not anyone read the Emma Gee’s and a Sniper went to War by Captain Herbert Mcbride?

Captain McBride was a frequent article contributor to the Arms and the Man in the 1920’s, under the name “Sniper”. He also wrote the two classic books I mentioned above, about his service with the Princess Patricia’s Canadian Light Infantry during WW1. The Canadian’s took Vimy Ridge, almost no one today understands the sacrifice it took to do that.

Captain McBride is not the only WW1 author I have read, and sprinkled throughout personnel experiences are descriptions of machine gun barrages. The Vickers/Maxims of the period were heavy, and extremely accurate at distance. While they were only 300-400 round per minute weapons, they were capable of extended periods of fire, and when companies of Emma Gee’s got together, they could control a battle space, till knocked out by artillery. I believe Captain McBride describes a night where several machine gun companies fired over a million rounds, to control an area, before a dawn attack. They made sure the Germans were not moving over the ground to position themselves.

He, and others, described long range “sniping” by machine gunners. As the static war progressed, aerial maps were shared down and artillery and machine gunners knew the cross roads and collection areas of the enemy. Since everyone moved at night, machine gunners would use basic geometry and figure out the azimuth and elevation to a particular cross road or known collection area, and spray the places at night. At extreme distances, the bullets would be subsonic, and men would just fall. That would be most disconcerting. Silent death is un nerving as people feel out of control. I recall one account, the Germans were in the habit of punctually bringing kitchens up close to one area, and the machine gunners decided to ruin their early breakfasts, And so they did, absolutely hosed down the area before day break and waited for the sun to rise to see what happened. There were dead Germans in the area, and the kitchens had to go even further back, when meant the poor Germans got cold food for breakfast.

You can imagine that long range was a desired capability of bullets, and it was post WW1 that the 174 FMJBT was developed for long range machine gun work. While there were static battle lines in WW2, few locations were as flat and featureless as Beligum or France, so long range machine gun fire was not as common.

After WW1 the US Army assembled experts to recommend what was needed for the next war, and it is worth looking at the Organization and Tactics, AEF Superior Board Report, 1919 but one of the surprising things is, even though artillery created 60 to 80% of causalities, the Superior Board emphasized accurate rifle shooting.

And this is reflected in my Dad’s pre WW2 Junior ROTC book. A lot of pages are devoted to describing how a junior office takes his platoon out in the field, searches for, identifies the enemies location, and then gets his squad to eliminate the enemy with accurate, long range rifle fire.





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M2 ball was not used solely in rifles. It's majority use, as a point of fact was in MGs. You want MG ammo to be 100% reliable. It's belted up and towed in boxes and crates far in advance of use. MGs buried in aircraft wings or fuselages are not things you can up and clear for a stoppage.

As a base of fire in offense or defense, is also a poor time to stop firing due to stoppages.

As an anecdote, the Garand in .276 did not have a "bent" op rod, that was mandated by the change in barrel contour to fit the 30-06 chamber
 
I figure the term "based on" is based on base diameter. There have been a whale of a lot of cartridges with the same base diameter as the 1888 8mm. Based on 8mm or based on 7mm. Yawn.

There was a very early .30 "headless" (rimless) cartridge that might be a transition between .30-40 and .30-03.

Only the Brits, US, and Russians used a .30.

Well, the Japanese changed to 7.7mm as best they could, commonly known at the time as the ".31 Jap", the Italians tried with a true .300" but failed, and there is not a lot of operational difference between a .30 and a .32 (8mm Whatever.)

I figure the German StGs were in 8x33 was for common rifling tooling with rifles and MGs. Some of their early work in intermediate rounds had been done in 7mm.
 
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you must remember semi auto rifles for the military were in their infancy. the hotter 173 gr bullet played hell on the OP rod so they went back to the 150 gr load. do you really believe that the army did not have adequate backstops. in 2 hours a bulldozer and a big loader can make a backstop. when I shot HP at army ranges they had 200 yds past the 600 yd berm a 20 ft high sand and dirt hill and it was amazing how hard the rounds after going thru the target hit thumped wall of dirt.the bullet would easily go thru a body. but the 308 is useless beyond 200 yds
It was the National Guard, not the Army per se that had the problem. National Guard ranges often did not have the backfall space for the more powerful round.
 
I wasn't sure how to title this thread. It sort of references this one.

The average distance of a fire fight in WWI (and maybe WWII) was less than 300 meters, which is also the average distance of the trenches in WWI. In many estimates, firefights averaged only 75 meters.

That being the case, why were a majority of the battle rifle calibers in the .30 range overpowered (by today's standards) when a more intermediate cartridge would have clearly been sufficient? Obviously most of the militaries in the world changed their minds during the cold war post WWII which is why we have the 5.45 and 5.56, but what was the mentality that equipped soldiers with punishingly powerful .30 caliber'ish options (on all sides) before WW2?

I mean...things like the .30-30 existed in the 19th century which clearly dropped a deer or elk. What made all the militaries of the world make those high-powered calibers? Every country at the time was equally culpable. Nobody swayed away from the formula of a .30 caliber pushing 2600+ FPS.
They were in WWII as well. The standard battle rifle had 30-06
 
Let's just stop repeating that myth... because that's ALL it is...

I am honestly surprised anyone still knows this myth. It was created by opponents of the M1 in the late 1930's, to knock the Garand out, and get their rifles adopted instead.

The 30-06 ammunition issued on the firing line at the National Matches had the 173 gr bullet.

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I shot 168's because the loads were well characterized and they shot well

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The Garand was limited by its gas port pressures, so while even heavier bullets could have been used, the pressures would have been cut to the level heavier bullets might have tumbled at distance, or at least, would have had unacceptable trajectories. I did try 190's with a gas plug vent and came to the conclusion the recoil was severe and was beating my Garand up. The 174 at 2650 fps was stable at 1000 yards and for the day, accurate.

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“Ransom Stoddard: You’re not going to use the story, Mr. Scott?
Maxwell Scott: No, sir. This is the West, sir.
When the legend becomes fact, print the legend.”

In other words, when fiction becomes fact, print the fiction.
A legend is folklore – or an old, made-up story – that people
eventually believe took place in history and is true, because
it sounds so convincing and humanistic.

(Shameless borrowed )
 
in WWI the 30-06 rd with the 150 gr bullet was severely outranged in machine guns by the 8MM Lebel which had a BT bullet. after the war the US switched to the 173 gr bt but when the M1 garand came into play the round was to powerful for the OP rod on the garand so they switched back to the 150 gr
Nope.

The M1 Garand was designed around the Cartridge, Caliber .30, Ball, M1, and it worked just fine. The development of Cartridge, Caliber .30, Ball, M2, is unrelated to the M1 Garand rifle, but the switch did required slight tweaks to the gas port size.
 
This is also turning out to be a myth as well.

Forgot about you. Where is all that data you claim to be collecting that shows that all commercial ammunition is safe in Garands? I do remember a discussion of yours, and a video, making the case that chamber pressures could be exactly determined by operating rod speed. Since you now have access to pressure gauges, how is that going?

You are free to damage your Garands in any ideological fashion you wish, to prove Garands are "strong". I am going to keep to, or under, service rifle velocities with well characterized powders and bullets. And I will advise others similarly.
 
Forgot about you. Where is all that data you claim to be collecting that shows that all commercial ammunition is safe in Garands? I do remember a discussion of yours, and a video, making the case that chamber pressures could be exactly determined by operating rod speed. Since you now have access to pressure gauges, how is that going?

You are free to damage your Garands in any ideological fashion you wish, to prove Garands are "strong". I am going to keep to, or under, service rifle velocities with well characterized powders and bullets. And I will advise others similarly.
Oddly enough tests are scheduled to run here early next month. The ballistician is out of country right now.

Actually I said port pressure..not chamber pressure.

There is already a pile of milsurp ammo data as a baseline. This next round covers mostly commercial ammo and some common reloading powders. I'm not expecting any major surprises as the small amount of commercial ammo already tested falls in with the milsurp ammo for port pressure. So no worries shooting those specific commercial loads.
 
Let's just stop repeating that myth... because that's ALL it is...
OK the 06 was down loaded for the M1. 2650 fps is 300 savage velocity. a 308 and a 175 gr bullet can be loaded to 2750 fps. the 06 with a 175 can get almost 2900 fps with staball or hunter powder. go to the hodgdon manual look up the load and fire them in your M1. tell me how you make out. the Germans made two 8mm loads one for machine guns and rifles. I got a lot of the machine gun ammo that they even say not to fire in the 98 bolt gun. I did anyway and the recoil was way more then the standard load
 
Ok.. '06 wasn't downloaded for the M1.

Ball, M1 is 2700+ at the muzzle.

No clue what hogdon has to do with this.

Germans didn't make a load just for machine guns. If it's 8x57 it's fine for any 8x57 weapon.
 
Germans didn't make a load just for machine guns. If it's 8x57 it's fine for any 8x57 weapon.
That is my understanding as well. It makes no sense for any country to make one kind of ammo for THIS gun and a different "higher pressure" loading for THAT gun. Besides being an invitation for disaster, It complicates the logistics and supply chain. The slight increase in performance in the higher pressure cartridge just isn't worth the hassle.
 
That is my understanding as well. It makes no sense for any country to make one kind of ammo for THIS gun and a different "higher pressure" loading for THAT gun. Besides being an invitation for disaster, It complicates the logistics and supply chain. The slight increase in performance in the higher pressure cartridge just isn't worth the hassle.


I agree, it only makes sense. However there are examples of "special ammunition" that got into the wrong firearm and caused the predicted trouble. Others have pointed out special hot sub machine gun ammunition that created problems when the stuff got into pistols. Of course there was the Spanish special 308 round for 7mm Mauser conversions. The round was downloaded to pressure levels safe in small ring Mausers. Every so often a picture is posted when one of these rifles blows up

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Of course the Spanish Military and the importers are laughing to the bank, because they know about the limitations of these weapons. However unsuspecting American's don't, and some paid a premium to buy a bobbie trap that was chambered in 308 Win.

I was reviewing Phil Sharpe's Handloading book. The Germans, and therefore I assume other did so too, had higher quality standards for aircraft ammunition. Mr Sharpe was over there after the war and brought back a bunch of Luftwaffe 8mm rejects and said he could not figure out what the problem was, as his stash all worked great. I don't know what the higher quality standards were, probably had to do with dimensions, case materials, case hardness, velocity, and pressure curves. These are all things that I can think of that might cause an aircraft machine gun to puke. Might be some more that I can't think of. An aircraft with jammed machine guns is in a real pickle. Kind of like the declawed feline in a cat fight.

There is always a fight between standardization and those who make a case for unique and new & improved. From what I have seen, the original 30-06 WW1 ball ammunition had a maximum pressure requirement, and a velocity requirement. Powder technology improved such that by the late 1930's, the velocity requirement was easy to meet without getting near the pressure requirement. Because they can, the "more means more" types would of course then increase pressure to increase velocities. But changing velocities would mean retrofitting all existing weapons with new front and/or rear sights, And that gets expensive. Figure out the manhours to do this, never mind the material cost. And those thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of manhours to retro fit the entire inventory could be better served polishing apples. A "more means more" type would have to quantify how much more they get with the added velocity. Other than the obvious that they are getting more velocity. I mean, what does added velocity get you in a military conflict?. And when it comes to money, a 200% increase in performance might dislodge a nickle of funding, but its a coin toss. The people who have control of the money, want to spend it on their pet projects, not yours. And there are a thousand similar claimants, all with end of history ideas, and the money pot is so, so small. Project funding is very Darwinian.
 
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Some of this may be in how the War Department changed nomenclature in 1934.
This was the result of the rapid adoption of the Machine Guns Model of 1917, Model of1919, and the BAR Model of 1918, all of which were actually accepted for Service in late 1917. But, Ordnance did not want three similar things all Model of 1917, and "jiggered" the designations. (This was all about keeping the accessories separate, as thre are differences in Tripod, Machine Gun, Model of 1917 and the later version for the 1919.

So, while the Cartridge, Rifle, Cal..30, Model of 1903 and Cartridge, Rifle, Cal..30, Model of 1906 were pretty obvious distinctions, the "M" system was less clear.
So, Cartridge, Rifle, Cal..30, M1 was just the first version adopted (IIRC 165gr spitzer).
Which was superseded by the Cartridge, Rifle, Cal..30, M2 in all its various forms (IIRC 150gr Spitzer).
So, you had M2 Ball; M2 Incendiary; M2 Tracer; M2 AP; M2 API; M2 Training, and so on.

They were all versions of the second round adopted by the War Department since 1934. So, a Cartridge, M1 was not necessarily meant for Rifles, M1.

Now, after DoD was created in 1947, and DLA emerged out of the chaos that was Korea, they changed the "M" system to be sequential numeration.
Which is why they fielded Ammunition, Ball, Cal.7.62nato M85, for the M-60 (and, a decade later, the M-14).
 
I agree, it only makes sense. However there are examples of "special ammunition" that got into the wrong firearm and caused the predicted trouble. Others have pointed out special hot sub machine gun ammunition that created problems when the stuff got into pistols. Of course there was the Spanish special 308 round for 7mm Mauser conversions. The round was downloaded to pressure levels safe in small ring Mausers. Every so often a picture is posted when one of these rifles blows up

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Of course the Spanish Military and the importers are laughing to the bank, because they know about the limitations of these weapons. However unsuspecting American's don't, and some paid a premium to buy a bobbie trap that was chambered in 308 Win.
The rifle blew up due to overcharged handloads...probably pistol powder trying to make a light load.

The 7mm mausers were meant to be used with 7.62/308.
 
So, while the Cartridge, Rifle, Cal..30, Model of 1903 and Cartridge, Rifle, Cal..30, Model of 1906 were pretty obvious distinctions, the "M" system was less clear.
So, Cartridge, Rifle, Cal..30, M1 was just the first version adopted (IIRC 165gr spitzer).
Which was superseded by the Cartridge, Rifle, Cal..30, M2 in all its various forms (IIRC 150gr Spitzer).
So, you had M2 Ball; M2 Incendiary; M2 Tracer; M2 AP; M2 API; M2 Training, and so on.

They were all versions of the second round adopted by the War Department since 1934. So, a Cartridge, M1 was not necessarily meant for Rifles, M1.

.
No..they were all the SECOND variant of their type of ammo. For example M2 ball is different that M1 ball. M2 AP is improved M1 AP... M2 tracer replaced M1 tracer . There is no M2 Incendiary because they only made one type, the M1 version. API is M14.. no such thing as M2 "training".
 
The rifle blew up due to overcharged handloads...probably pistol powder trying to make a light load.

The 7mm mausers were meant to be used with 7.62/308.

So you believe old Mausers and Garands are strong. Seems to be a pattern.
 
Slamfire is correct about the old Mauser's especially the one in the picture. It is a Spanish FR7 which is nothing more than an 1893 action re-barreled and chambered for the 7.62mm CETME round and will not withstand 308 Winchester pressures. I can't speak to the strength of Garands and how they will handle the same pressure. Nor will I try.
I have personally built 5 Spanish 1893 Mauser's and one of which is chamber for 7.62 CETME for which I hand load to 300 Savage pressures to prevent such a catastrophic failure that Slamfire shown is his post. The other 4 are 7mm Mauser and are tack drivers.
 
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